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Old 02-05-2005, 08:48 AM   #81
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I was a smoker in high school, because, like all smokers believe at first, it was cool. (Why else would a thinking being deliberately inhale the smoke from burning leaves??)

After I didn't need to be cool any more, I did what it took to quit. Quitting isn't easy, but neither is watching someone die from lung cancer. Being "difficult" is not an excuse. People need to take responsibility and make hard choices (of course with the example set by our govt leadership, it's not surpirising that people want everyone to accomodate their wishes, rather than take responsibility for their own actions.)

As for child endangerment... The other day I saw a woman get out of a car with two kids. She had a cigarette in her mouth. Here in NY, it was 8 degrees.

Yes, that's child endangerment, and yes, it SHOULD be a serious charge. What would you say if she had OFFERED her kids cigarettes? It's the same thing. The slap missing from that picture was not from my hand, but from her face!! (Ouch)

And my point about self-centeredness was not exclusively directed on behalf of workers in bars, etc. It was a GENERAL statement about the gall of people who think they somehow have the "right" to blow poisonous smoke into the air whenever they feel like it. As I said, they have as much of a "right" to smoke as I do to light an incense stick. Tell me how they're different, if you don't agree.

My uncle Onofrio, an 82 year old Italian American navy vet, man of few (often earthy) words, and former smoker, who has a lot less need for political correctness than you or I might, has the following response when someone asks if he minds if they smoke:

He says "Do you mind if I fart?" I think that about sums up the difference between what may be a "right" vs what is actually "right" in terms of public behavior.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:24 AM   #82
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Quote:
As for child endangerment... The other day I saw a woman get out of a car with two kids. She had a cigarette in her mouth. Here in NY, it was 8 degrees.
So, umm, was the child endangerment the cigarette, or her taking the kids out in below freezing with the potential to get in an accident and all freeze to death? Where is the line drawn, who draws that line, Taking kids out on halloween is child endagerment, you could buy candy tht's known safe. Taking the kids to the fair, driving with kids in the car, allowing kids access to a kitchen, owning a loaded gun in your house, owning a dog, having an aquarium (I had a 20 gal fall on my head, 10 stiches later...), etc...

You cannot in one breath say that smoking is child endangerment and not consider all the normal behaviours to be considered the same.

Quote:
It was a GENERAL statement about the gall of people who think they somehow have the "right" to blow poisonous smoke into the air whenever they feel like it.
Best park your car, it's blowing poisonous smoke into my air. The nerve of some people, using cars that produces carbon monoxide which is "LETHAL IN DOSE" , but you don't have a problem with this, perhaps there is more dangerous things with people who refuse to take the bus, car pool, take a subway to work, heck, even walk to the corner store.. but how dare smokers blow smoke in a private establishment..
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3 x Halichoeres Chrysus (1 surfed), 3 x Nemateleotris magnifica, 1 x Centropyge bicolor, 11 x Scarlet Hermits, 6 x Zebra Hermits, 40 x Astrea Snails, 6 x Nassarius Snails, 3 x Cerith Snails
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:40 AM   #83
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Be serious!!

Do you really think that the things you mentioned are comparable to smoking inside of a closed car when kids are breathing in the fumes? Throwing in irrelevant side arguments is not the same as attacking the point I'm trying to make. Are you DEFENDING people who smoke in cars with kids?

Would you offer a cigarette to a child? 8O If you did, you'd be endangering that child's health, wouldn't you? Keeping that kid in a closed car while smoking is EXACTLY the same as giving him a cigarette of his own. That's irresponsible, AMAZINGLY selfish, and is child endangerment through a DELIBERATE and AVOIDABLE action on the part of the adult.

Again, it seems that smokers want to share their drug addiction with the rest of us against our will- those of us who've decided not to jeopardize our health by breathing in tar, nicotine and high levels of carbon monoxide from a rolled up tube of burning leaves. Attempting to poison the air of adults who can do something about it is one thing, but kids????

If you wouldn't blow smoke into an airline of your tank, how could you blow it in the face of a child?
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-05-2005, 10:21 AM   #84
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Quote:
Do you really think that the things you mentioned are comparable to smoking inside of a closed car when kids are breathing in the fumes?
Yes, sitting with your car idling waiting for the kids to come out of school is equally bad (not just for kids), fairs, halloween, going to the beach when a child cannot swim.. they are all "child endangerment through a DELIBERATE and AVOIDABLE action on the part of the adult. "

Let's face it, every action I can think of with a child is a danger to thier health, hot dogs (known to cause cancer in a study), chicken (known to possibly have salmonella)

The enviroment provided by the population makes every day life for a child hazordous. (whether through action or inaction, we know cars produce emissions, yet we still need a hemi, or durango, or excursion, or hummer to take the kids to school or commute to work and not ever put a load in the back cuz you don't want to scratch it)

Next thing you know, smoking will be blamed for the ozone layer (something that is endagering everyone and everything on this planet).

Would you offer HotDogs to children?
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3 x Halichoeres Chrysus (1 surfed), 3 x Nemateleotris magnifica, 1 x Centropyge bicolor, 11 x Scarlet Hermits, 6 x Zebra Hermits, 40 x Astrea Snails, 6 x Nassarius Snails, 3 x Cerith Snails
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:03 AM   #85
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Are you saying that eating a hotdog is the same as breathing in cigarette smoke? I can't believe you are actually serious, so I have to assume you're pulling my leg.

Subtle humor. I like it.

Of course no serious person who gives a hoot about kids' health would ever be able to justify forcing kids to breathe in second hand smoke.

I guess we'll just have to agree on that.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:10 AM   #86
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Quote:
People need to take responsibility and make hard choices (of course with the example set by our govt leadership
Bit of a contradiction there.
The bottom line to me.
If the desire it there to public impose smoking bans, or any bans for that matter. It should not be in the hands of government. It should be put on a ballot and let the people decide. Government IMO has too much power these days as it is.
The other factor is that we are talking about places that are PRIVATE property. That is a whole other ballgame to me. We really need to be very careful in areas such as this. (Where is the ACLU when it comes to this kind of of stuff )
We are still a free country and its very easy to fall into a trap where these freedoms are being taken away.
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:21 AM   #87
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I will post a quote..

Quote:
This large European study found that if a person ate an average of 2 ounces of processed meat per day (equivalent of a jumbo hot dog) they had a 50% greater chance of developing colorectal cancer than those who ate no preserved meat.
Now, statistics are useless, as discussed, 50% more then what.

but the studies do say something..

Quote:
"The results linking hot dogs and brain tumors (replicating an earlier study) and the apparent synergism between no vitamins and meat consumption suggest a possible adverse effect of dietary nitrites and nitrosamines.(20)

Peters, et al. studied the relationship between the intake of certain foods and the risk of leukemia in children from birth to age 10 in Los Angeles County between 1980 and 1987. The researchers found that children who ate 12 or more hot dogs per month had approximately nine times the normal risk for developing childhood leukemia. A strong risk for childhood leukemia also existed for those children whose fathers' intake of hot dogs was 12 or more per month. (21) Peters, et al. concluded:
That would make feeding hotdogs to your kids 900% more likely to cause leukemia. yet people still do it at birthday parties.
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3 x Halichoeres Chrysus (1 surfed), 3 x Nemateleotris magnifica, 1 x Centropyge bicolor, 11 x Scarlet Hermits, 6 x Zebra Hermits, 40 x Astrea Snails, 6 x Nassarius Snails, 3 x Cerith Snails
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Old 02-05-2005, 02:10 PM   #88
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There is an invisible line that is constantly moving around that defines what is generally acceptable behavior. Moderates identify actions which are definitely, absolutely, and seriously harfmul to all or nearly all children and act upon it. Those far from the middle identify things they don't like and come up with statistics to justify their beliefs. Be grateful you have the liberty to choose what you don't like and raise your kids the way you think best, and let every one else do the same. Do not seek behavior modification through legislation. It is far more effective to modify behavior on a large scale through social customs, since people will voluntarily chage behavior in an attempt to fit in, but won't do it by force. Over time, if your belief is valid, it will prevail. Till then, let everyone live free.
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Old 02-05-2005, 02:20 PM   #89
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Good news: I quit smoking today!!!!!!!!!!!!! Haven't touched one since I got up about 9 hours ago. And won't till I go to bed in 5 hours.
I smoked an average of 15 cigs a day.
It's going to be hard, but I'm still doing fine, I have a good motivation, and that's more important then any nicotine patches or placebos.
I know I can do this. And I want to do this. Because it does bother people that you stink. Noone will tell you to your face, but smokers: Ya stink!
And offcourse it's unhealthy. And costly. Guess what I'm going to do with the money I save? That's right, set it aside to buy me things I really want, instead of burning my money away.

An ex-smoker.........
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Old 02-05-2005, 02:25 PM   #90
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Good for you. I hope you succeed. YOu'll be healthier and happier - and so will the people around you (unless you force them to eat hotdogs, I guess, whcih some people believe are more dangerous than being trapped in a car full of smoke).
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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