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Old 10-28-2013, 06:28 PM   #31
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The problem with rehoming rather than euthanising is that a lot will go to ill equipped or ill trained owners who will give them a slow death through neglect and mishandling rather than a quick and relatively painless death by euthanasia. That is, unless you have the time to properly vet any potential owners.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by johnny leftist View Post
The problem with rehoming rather than euthanising is that a lot will go to ill equipped or ill trained owners who will give them a slow death through neglect and mishandling rather than a quick and relatively painless death by euthanasia. That is, unless you have the time to properly vet any potential owners.
That's why I'd rather my fish didn't breed at all if I can't keep the fry.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:02 AM   #33
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That's why I'd rather my fish didn't breed at all if I can't keep the fry.
Where would we be without breeding though?
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:14 AM   #34
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Where would we be without breeding though?
we would be with an enormous amount, its already huge from humans though, of fish that are extinct in the wild. its so sad to see that an animal has gone extinct, you can never bring that animal back BANG its gone forever. it happens to everything, including many very beautiful fish, but on the other hand there are fish that have been collected and then gone extinct in the wild but people can breed them and reintroduce them to their natural environment. i was rereading one of my TFH magazines the other day and it had an article of this beautiful betta, that looked nothing like a wild betta and had beautiful blue and red colors, but it was a wild found betta and it was extinct from its natural environment. i was reading another interesting one about collecting nothobranchius in africa and the last documented find of one of the species was 1952 i believe, so they were pronounced extinct, and they ended up finding a couple of them over 50 years after they were pronounced extinct. pretty crazy stuff, but even if all of the people in the world that cared enough about the environment and living creatures to do something actually did something, there are still too many people who don't care or collect for money and wipe out species. its completely impossible to control things that can be sold for money, people will steal and poach anything that they can make money on. i will only buy fish that are on the no threat list. although there is one that I'm going to get, that is endangered in the wild, but most of them in the hobby are tank bred and its against the law to collect endangered species for people who actually follow the law and regulations. the saltwater hobby is going to have to become more advanced and have breeding facilities to find out how to breed more fish before they collect too many and they become extinct, causing more laws against collecting things from the wild. if that happened the hobby would eventually crash from fish being too inbred. i would be devastated if i had a beautiful wild caught fish, like a tang or mandarin, and they went extinct without people being able to breed them. just thought i would share the rest of my thoughts lol
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:33 AM   #35
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For the people that think that euthanizing a perfectly healthy fish is unethical, do you file complaints at pet stores that sell feeder fish also? That's one healthy fish being euthanized versus dozens if not hundreds being killed daily.

Yes, they are serving a purpose as food, but 99% of the fish that they are fed to could just as easily be fed flakes, frozen, or pelleted food that is not only healthier but cheaper and less prone to disease transmission.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:49 AM   #36
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i also agree with jeta jockey, feeders are cruel for the fish who don't need them which is almost every one in this hobby. let the fish do what they do in when in nature but when they are in your tank why kill innocent fish in front of you, when most of the fish are tank bred and do better with high quality prepared foods. feeders often introduce diseases into tanks and if you continuously use them causing your beloved fish to get a disease and possibly dying. it will happen eventually. you wouldn't feed your cat or dog a live animal, why do it with fish if they don't need it and can eat food that is better for them and keep them alive longer? fish should only be euthanized if they are terribly ill and suffering or grow up with an extreme disability causing them to live a life they shouldn't be living. too many betta breeders just kill bettas because their colors and looks aren't worth selling. imo thats one of the things i dislike about bettas
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:03 AM   #37
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too many betta breeders just kill bettas because their colors and looks aren't worth selling. imo thats one of the things i dislike about bettas
To be fair, that happens with most fish species in the trade, the unattractive ones are culled. Granted, some don't kill their culls (many betta 'culls' are what end up in the shelf stock at your neighborhood pet stores), but culling undesirable fish is a real part of the hobby, whether we like it or not.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:24 AM   #38
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I don't understand how this conversation is still ongoing. you are comparing someone willingly taking unwanted fish in and killing them because they don't have room for them to things such as 1)a breeder culling offspring for undesired traits, 2) feeding feeder fish to predatory fish. 3) culling bettas for color. . . . its not even close or ethical. so let me understand this, because theres a worse option thats possible, we should just pick the best option in front of us and not question it or hold ourselves to a higher standard?? thats insane. just like anything else in life our hobby is a supply and demand business. and just as our hobby has done to several negligent pet stores, we can stop this kind of actions by simply not feeding into it. because I consider myself to be a responsible adult, if I decide to quit the hobby and sell off everything I have in it, I make it my sole responsibility to properly rehome my fish, not unload them on anybody with free tankspace. these fish depend on us, they literally have no control over their lives. so its our responsibility to ensure their healthy lives. point being, if you don't want a fish, or don't have plans to properly care for them, don't take them in. simple as that
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:28 AM   #39
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To be fair, that happens with most fish species in the trade, the unattractive ones are culled. Granted, some don't kill their culls (many betta 'culls' are what end up in the shelf stock at your neighborhood pet stores), but culling undesirable fish is a real part of the hobby, whether we like it or not.
yes you are right about that one, but most of the fish in the hobby(that are all one color) y come out looking the same as the next one so only the ones with actual deformities get culled. bettas get killed if they don't have "pretty" colors or nice looking fins. yes there are people who sell most of their bettas and you see them in cheap run down pet stores. not many people buy them and many of them suffer a slow and painful death in a little cup. there are many cruel things in this hobby that i don't agree with and they happen all the time. it really sucks that most people look at fish as food or very unintelligent animals that don't feel anything. its just one of my opinions about euthanizing that i take the against side in killing fish that don't need it, but on the other hand you could say the survival rate is much, much higher when bred in the aquarium, even after you've culled all the fish you need and are ready to sell. in my opinion too many people care about the colors of their fish and the different morphs of fish. if more people would actually care about what wild caught animals looked like, we wouldn't have to do so much selective breeding to get the fish that the average consumer wants. i would prefer wild looking fish over selectively bred fish any day. take for example mollies, they are bred into so many different colors and morphs that they actually have one born with a bent spine, balloon molly, and its an intentional deformity for the consumer. its things like that, that i completely dislike about the hobby, but what is one 20 year old from Minnesota going to do? a lot of people think its bad to collect fish from the wild, but it is needed to keep from getting too many deformed fish from. the aquarium industry makes so much money on selectively bred fish it won't ever stop. its just one of those things that could be argued over and over and in the end its going to happen regardless of what a few people talking to each other about killing aquarium fish is going to do or that its cruel and get culled because they don't look good. people filet live fish all the time and i don't agree with making a fish suffer for that long rather than taking a little more time and a little more effort killing it quickly before you filet it. I've seen people filet live fish and i asked them why they don't kill them first, and they said "well fish don't feel pain and it will die in a few minutes anyway" and they actually believed it until i told them otherwise. people either don't know anything about what goes on with fish or how intelligent they are, or they just don't care. then there are people who care but do it anyway and people who care and buy the fish that could have come from the person putting them through terrible conditions or culling fish that look perfectly normal, aside from having "undesirable" colors or even someone who did everything perfect but with fish that are too far inbred and keep causing fish with deformities that need to be culled. sorry about the rant lol i am just stressed and that is how i feel about it, i don't know how others feel about it and won't be able to change it so pretty much everything i said is just a waste of time thats going to get read by a few people then down the line it goes never to be read again. lol doesn't life just get at you sometimes? most of the time i just try to ignore the fact that humans do an insane amount of destruction to every single thing on planet earth and at the rate our population went up over the past 150 years, its only a matter of time before we overpopulate the earth and all of the natural resources are used up and pollution that we create eventually gets to be too much, killing more species and contaminating more and more things killing even more until humans have destroyed the earth from oh so many of their terrible ways. okay i need to stop thinking about this or i will not be able to stop typing. if you reqd this whole thing jetajockey, thank you thats how i feel. if you feel different on your opinions and have good reasoning on why tell me haha i'm not the kind of person who doesn't dislike people because of their opinions, as long as their reason behind it is completely wrong or they believe its okay because they don't care what other people think. wow i just wrote a novel. goodnight everyone, great debate on this thread!! but i have to remember that opinions will only go so far...it takes actions to change the "wrong" things happening in life. is not buying a fish store from mass produced chain store, or any store, wrong because its so inbred or in terrible conditions and looks like its dying so you don't want to buy it for it to die in your tank? of course its wrong people, buy these fish and try to recover them in quarantine! if they die in your tank at least you can say you tried and if they survive, trust me, you will feel good about having saved a fish that the pet store would have just watched die. i just try to help more people understand that ignorance to what fish actually need either because they don't know or don't care because they believe its just a a "decoration" and don't need proper care. sorry about the mixed up off topic rant but it all relates to if euthanizing a fish is right or wrong and in the end its only really right if it is deformed and won't live healthy and is more right than wrong in certain circumstances if it isn't one that will be bought and to let them suffer in a bowl on a shelf at the local fish store. nobody can control everything that happens, which is what causes your opinions whether they are good or bad. but if your opinions are against something and you feel strongly about certain things, try not to think about it like i did causing you to think about more bad things about this hobby and type all of this but for people who are completely new to the hobby and don't know any of this, they need to. they need to either try and rescue as many fish as they can and only euthanize fish that need it or they won't live healthy. that is if they are the kind of person that cares about living things and deals with what has to happen or people who don't even care and would read this and say "this guys crazy why is he talking about fish cruelty," "fish are too stupid" or even "how the heck cares about fish anyway" thanks for reading my book i hope that a newcomer will read this thread and learn what happens before you buy your fish. that is if a mod deletes my thread of shortens it lol sorry I've never typed that much on here. i know you, jetajockey, have quite a bit more experience than me but i still have quite a bit and have strong opinions that i like to share with people who don't know or try to convince them that they should care if there is animal cruelty going on. if you care about dogs and cats being treated about bad because they are on commercials but not other animals then i will not stop trying to change your opinions. people who don't care about any kind of animal cruelty, hitting animals, obviously wouldn't care about any of this, but they aren't people i want to be associated with. man i should have just started a new thread called "fish cruelty and affects of humans" lol
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:53 AM   #40
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I don't understand how this conversation is still ongoing. you are comparing someone willingly taking unwanted fish in and killing them because they don't have room for them to things such as 1)a breeder culling offspring for undesired traits, 2) feeding feeder fish to predatory fish. 3) culling bettas for color. . . . its not even close or ethical. so let me understand this, because theres a worse option thats possible, we should just pick the best option in front of us and not question it or hold ourselves to a higher standard?? thats insane. just like anything else in life our hobby is a supply and demand business. and just as our hobby has done to several negligent pet stores, we can stop this kind of actions by simply not feeding into it. because I consider myself to be a responsible adult, if I decide to quit the hobby and sell off everything I have in it, I make it my sole responsibility to properly rehome my fish, not unload them on anybody with free tankspace. these fish depend on us, they literally have no control over their lives. so its our responsibility to ensure their healthy lives. point being, if you don't want a fish, or don't have plans to properly care for them, don't take them in. simple as that
listen i just think people should actually care about things that are wrong and if they don't i try to change there mind. these things should be understood and you should feel sorry for doing something cruel and accept it if you continue. why do people go to prison? they killed someone and did something wrong and jail makes them think about why they are in there constantly and stress them for doing something cruel. again, unless they are the kind of person who doea it without remorse. if you had a friend who killed someone while driving and they were at fault and didn't feel bad, would you stay friends with them? whats to say humans should control everything on earth without feeling guilty about it because they are knowledgable and feel feelings. are you a person who eats meat but doesn't feel bad about slaughter houses and eating steak but thinks its weird and sad that cats and dogs get eaten in other parts of the world. people who believe in buddhism either don't eat meat because they don't believe in any kind of killing or they eat meat that someone else killed amd feel for the animal. i take for instance a scene of avatar. the girl shoots a dog with the bow to save the guy, but she feels bad for it and cries. things have to be done sometimes, but if more people cared and actually tried to make things better on every living creature this world would be a much better place. these posts are now completely off topic but i have my opinions and i wont be rude about them but i will stand by them. imo if a breeder culls what truly need to be culled and puts it to good use, like hukit using cull as fertilizer or bob mccoy feeding his angels, rather than just tossing it without thinking twice because they won't sell then its OK. but too many people raise fry to ages where they won't get eaten and just kill them unethically it is wrong
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