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Old 07-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #11
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I love wild caught, if it weren't still a possibility our breeds would become overbreed and slowly start to create deformities. When I was breeding saulosi I noticed the original breeding group was from a stressed mother and I had to shut down the whole tank. My chailosi are F1 and their colors are more beautiful than most pictures I look up on the breed.

It is also a great way to keep hybridization down with wild caught, but that too happens in the wild at times.

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Old 07-07-2012, 11:02 AM   #12
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This is a great topic. This one hits close to home because I collect native fish from time to time. I'm not sure what would constitute it as cruel since it'd be a bit hypocritical to call wild caught fish keeping cruel and then happily keep a house full of domesticated animals. If we placed all creatures on the same level then it is selfishness by us to keep animals as pets, but that again is another ethical question. I believe we have dominion over animals and should be their caretakers both in the wild (to the best of our ability) and in our families.

I agree with the OP, the real pressure on wild species is encroachment/habitat destruction. There are some species in aquaria today that no longer exist in the wild, and it's not because of overcollecting/overfishing. So in those instances, fishkeeping actually saved some species that would have gone extinct.

There are many people who make a career out of keeping tabs on different wild species and putting laws in place to help maintain or flourish those most affected for whatever the circumstance is.

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Old 07-07-2012, 11:05 AM   #13
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I'm mixed on this.

I love native species fish and have 3 dedicated tanks for their well being. I'm hoping that I can get them breeding so I can advance the hobby out here. Mind you, these aren't Colorado natives, so to us they're exotic.

I have found that the wild caughts are hardier than their captive raised cousins.

Take for example killies. I have both tank raised and wilds, the wilds have better colors, are more forgiving if I can't get to the water changes promptly, and just all around seem to adapt better.

The down side is that I do worry about over collecting.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #14

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Originally Posted by DragonFish71 View Post

I have found that the wild caughts are hardier than their captive raised cousins.
Good point, I think that's a popular misconception with wild caught but in my experience they are drastically hardier than captive breed. I'm sure the daily struggles in the wild have a higher risk value than the lazy life in our tanks. My biggest challenges has always been acclimating to processed foods and overcoming their shyness, once that's done there really are no differences.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by HUKIT
I've been a freshwater guy for 30 years and have never really given much thought to the salty side of this question, but something I would be interested in hearing.
In saltwater, the breeding of fish is just so much more crucial to the hobby.

For example, i was at the lfs the other day in the salt sections. We were curious and asked, out of all the fish there and 30ish tanks how many of the species were bred in captivity. He said 1 species. The clowns. Can you imagine how many of these fish were just swooped in on and captured? And considering that saltwater has grown alot, i cannot begin to think about all the wild caught fish in the hobby.

Im not really sure where i stand on this topic. Yes im in the hobby..so saying "anything taken out of the wild is bad" is a bit hypocritical. I am also in the section of the hobby where so much is plucked from the wild. That being said, i always pay extra if i have the option of a tank-bred fish, or self propagated coral. Of course the parents of these fish and the mother colony of this coral had to be wild...but hey, better than nothing!

Nice topic hukit
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:01 PM   #16
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I find it no less ethical to extract specimens from the wild than it is to force a specimen to live in an artificial environment, regardless of origin or bloodline. There must come a point where a line is drawn - non sentient organisms are not privy to the rights created by humans. If they are granted any extension of these rights is purely up to the caretaker.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:05 PM   #17
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Subjective depending on the care quality of the supplier(s). Were fry overcrowded, underfed, imbreeding involved, exposed to high NH3 concentrations, QT'd for parasites/disease (what meds/methods). For those preferencing wild caught as hardier, is this based simply on purchasing fish from a local lfs or online supplier (knowing well they have culled any dead prior to opening for the day) of which may or may not still have underlying illnesses.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #18
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this topic has several facets, and is far from clear cut.While there are more than a few extinct species being kept in aquaria, does it really matter that much? they are no longer existent in the wild. Some species that are endangered, can profit from being kept by hobbyists and species preservation programs in zoos. regardless, these fish will not be returned to the wild.
captive bred fish cheaply and readily available can be detrimental to the long term existance of their wild counterparts. An example of this would be the Cardinal tetra.Some 84,000,000 are harvested annually for the pet trade. this is a number that is, apparently sustainable. because the locals make their living from their capture, they aren't burning down rainforest to try and farm. the result is a preservation of the habitat and the ensured survival of the Cardinals, the forest, and the people who call it home. If a cheap source of cardinals were to become available, perhaps from the far east, the collecting might stop, and the resultant degradation of the habitat, created by the need for local peoples to survive, by any means necessary, could result in loss of fish and the forest habitat. So, in this case, wild caught is beneficial to the species and any other species in the area.
Of course, every case is different, and some fish have quickly become at risk shortly after their discovery.
As far as whether it is ethical to remove an animal from the wild, place in a carefully cultured environment, ensure it is free from parasites, and provide a steady supply of food, I will leave it up to the individual.
If you look at what is happening with frogs, and the Kettrick fungus, the only hope for most of them is that they are caught in the wild and removed to a carefully tended environment, and bred, hopefully, over time, with some resistance to the fungus.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:02 PM   #19
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Bill touched on another point that I would like to flesh out a bit. There is a strong economic argument for wild caught over captive bred. If we were to transition to captive bred only, prices for many difficult to breed fish would skyrocket. Imagine trying to produce 84,000,000 cardinals, a species which is difficult to breed. Same thing with otos, SAE, and several other tetras (among others). We would quickly find that our selection of economically viable species would dwindle. Wild caught fish are essential to the hobby, ethical or not.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:23 PM   #20
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^^^One of the primary reasons we don't see captive breeding on such a grand scale...money talks. Even such ventures overseas involving fish/amphib culturing can and is obstructed by unwillingness for whatever reasons, government-wise down to local inhabitants.

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