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Old 07-08-2012, 05:26 AM   #31
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Should specimens of critically endangered species not be kept in captivity unless a stable breeding program exists? Is there some sort of margin of error between the time of specimen acquisition and establishment of a effective breeding program? Should we be allowed to collect wild specimens for attempts at developing viable breeding regiments, given the possibility of failure? Should failure be punishable?

The debate of the ethics of fish-keeping and all its related extensions seem about as likely to reach an agreeable conclusion as a town-hall meeting on abortion.

I do however, appreciate everyone taking the time to voice their input and read that of others without resorting to a juvenile display of flared tempers. Some interesting ideas being thrown around here, let's see where this goes
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:54 AM   #32
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I only keep fw and am only speaking from the fw side of life.
I do not at all believe that captive breeding or wild collection are inherently unethical. I totally agree with Len that there are all sorts of shades of grey on a topic like this because of the individuality of the circumstances where different fish are collected from. We are looking at a whole globe of species, and there are a world of variables. Personally, I prefer to keep tank bred fish when possible, but I certainly own some wild caught fish and I don't lose any sleep over it.
People sometimes tend to apply human emotions to fish, but that's not a fair representation of the fish. IMO, to view them as human is to not respect them for the form of life that they actually are. If a fish's basic needs are met, and it is given the environment for an array of its natural behaviors, I think the fish is fine. Also, it can do all of that in my tank which is FAR easier than being chased by predators for its whole life or facing pollution or the temperature swings that can happen in creeks or droughts. Heck, the wild is not easy, so I personally don't feel that it's a disservice to the fish to put them in appropriately sized tanks.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:34 AM   #33
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If one were to look at the list of CARES species, you might be surprised at some of the species that are in danger. One that surprised me was the White Cloud Mountain Minnow, which I still see sold as feeders. I am keeping a pair of Cryptoheros nanoluteus, sometimes called lemon or yellow convict, a CARES species, as are a number of people in our club. If you have the tank space, adopting a CARES species might be something you would want to consider. The CARES program is still evolving, but is a start of something good, in my opinion.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:35 AM   #34
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Ethically speaking....

1.) To remove an animal from it's native habitat is unethical. To use an animal for the sole purpose of amusement or pleasure is unethical. ( Sea World for example )

2.) Captive breeding is unethical, but in the case of a species becoming almost extinct might persuade this argument,but then...should we release them back after such time as extinction doesn't seem likely?

Of course you only mentioned "ethics" so that's how I'm approaching it.

Live animals for a hobby is questionable. The only reason we don't question it is because we see ourselves highest on the food chain, invincible and the most intelligent.

I'll question the last of those three...
If you truly find this behavior unethical, how could you even participate in this hobby in good conscience?

This is also an extreme stance on animal keeping in general. Ethics are not universal and vary among people and culture. Almost every person I've ever known has had an animal at some point in their life. Most ethical views are shared by the majority, which clearly isn't the case here.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:39 AM   #35
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Ethically we do things every day that shouldn't be done.

Advancement in medicine would not be where it is today if it weren't for the unfortunate sacrifices of testing on animals. (Although I do have an idea on how to avoid animal testing altogether).
How do you think animal testing can be avoided for drug development?
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #36
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How do you think animal testing can be avoided for drug development?
Not to go off topic but my stance is instead of using animals, use the prisoners that are on death row, or that are serving life sentences without the possibility for parole. An animal can only give so much information, they are different than we are. We can voice what's happening when we react to a medication. Plus, well, honestly, if you're on death row or serving life without parole, you shouldn't be considered a human any longer.

We can discuss this further in PM though to avoid going off topic.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:52 PM   #37
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Test humans = population control......or zombie revolution :p....or both :p:p
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #38
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If you truly find this behavior unethical, how could you even participate in this hobby in good conscience?

This is also an extreme stance on animal keeping in general. Ethics are not universal and vary among people and culture. Almost every person I've ever known has had an animal at some point in their life. Most ethical views are shared by the majority, which clearly isn't the case here.

The original poster brought up the point about ethics and, as someone else said, it's a very grey area.

Ethically we could also look at how quite a few of the LFS keep their fish and say that by bringing them home and improving on their environment would also be ethical in relation to where they came from.

Just because I brought up one side of an ethical argument doesn't mean that there aren't 5 other sides to it. But to ignore one side, because the other 5 support your stance doesn't negate the 6th side.

He asked to look at it ethically, which I did. Taking an unpopular few doesn't mean that I share it, but only brought it up for a topic of conversation to expand on it.

It's really that simple. An open exchange of ideas, whether popular or not, actually add to the conversation, not take away from it.

Had he framed the question differently, he would have gotten vastly different responses.
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #39
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I am keeping a pair of Cryptoheros nanoluteus, sometimes called lemon or yellow convict, a CARES species, as are a number of people in our club.
I have a wild caught pair of nanoluteus and that I've been supplying fry to members in our club for 18 months. The next endangered fish I've been looking for are wild caught Amphilophus lyonsi which will be entered into our breeding program.

We have been active in CARES in our club for sometime now, I'm sure most will recognize most of the names on the cordinator list. This is a great program that could use support from you or your local club. Below is a link to the speices on the list.

C.A.R.E.S Preservation Program
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #40
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I had no idea that c.nanoluteus were on the list. I have a pair of f2s (I think) in my 120 that has recently started breeding, I'm setting up a 40b for them to have by themselves so that they can spawn in peace.
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