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Old 03-21-2015, 10:14 AM   #131
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I agree with you DelaPool. There comes a point when you just have to say "enough is enough" we just put down my dog of 12 years last month. She had severe arthritis and it was very hard for her to walk(she was a black lab and weighed a good 80 pounds). We decided that we had spent enough on medication and wanted her to feel no more pain. Yes it was a hard decision and I stayed in the room through it all but it had to be done.

Same goes for fish. I can't say I would go to the vet for a guppy. If I had like an $800 saltwater fish (it's in dealers den on LiveAquaria) then you better believe i would give it optimal care. Do I love the fish any different? No. It's the amount of money in willing to spend for its care. Granted I will spend money for simple meds. I hate losing any fish.

But all in all it just depends on how much you will spend to keep it alive. In the case of my dog, she was suffering and we didn't want to see that anymore.


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Old 03-21-2015, 10:43 AM   #132
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Yes, of course that happens. Think about when the dog or cat gets old and the vet suggests say heart tablets and a few others that are a significant cost each week. There's a point where we say at the end of the day, this is enough - I'm not going to spend any more. And that's not much fun that decision to be honest (along with putting pets down which is somewhat different to livestock).

Closer to the fish tank, a dead fish killed from an infection could be taken to an aquatic vet, a culture taken and meds (likely quite specialised) bought for other still living infected fish. How many of us would do this for say a guppy I wonder? A large, long life fish I would consider getting med injections for it from the vet. For a guppy that is never going to happen.

However that's all as an aside. My problem is that if a med can be used in a hospital then I'm not so sure it should be used on animals, unless there is no risk of cross-bacterial infection. This is getting into the realms of super-bugs in hospitals that need strong antibiotics as I understand.

If the choice is saving a pet now or perhaps saving your child in hospital later on so to speak (eg as antibiotics haven't been rendered ineffective through indiscriminate use).

Of course this is all pretty dark and morbid, I would think solving if cross-bacterial infection is a problem would be the first issue (i.e. do any of the meds we use run the risk of creating super bugs in a hospital?).

My suspicion is that it is going to be aquaculture farms, etc that would cause more of a problem (if it is)?? Thoughts?
Granted, you have a point about taking a fish to the vet, but keep in mind its kind of scary how accurately fish diseases can be diagnosed with a picture and description. With that in mind, is $10 in medication too much? Especially when most bacterial infections are our fault. In my entire time keeping fish ive had to use antibiotics once.

With the fish farms, and farm industry in general indiscriminately dumping antibiotics into everything, using them once every year or two is going to have absolutely no effect on creating super bugs, especially because with the exception of maybe tb fish pathogens arent any more infective to humans than the every day bacteria we come into contact with every second.

Im failing to see a reasoning behind your dislike of using human meds on fish. These agents are used on both humans and fish because they are effective at killing the parasite or pathogen without killing the host. Every single medication for fish has its place in human medication hecause they work.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:45 AM   #133
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Granted, you have a point about taking a fish to the vet, but keep in mind its kind of scary how accurately fish diseases can be diagnosed with a picture and description. With that in mind, is $10 in medication too much? Especially when most bacterial infections are our fault. In my entire time keeping fish ive had to use antibiotics once.

With the fish farms, and farm industry in general indiscriminately dumping antibiotics into everything, using them once every year or two is going to have absolutely no effect on creating super bugs, especially because with the exception of maybe tb fish pathogens arent any more infective to humans than the every day bacteria we come into contact with every second.

Im failing to see a reasoning behind your dislike of using human meds on fish. These agents are used on both humans and fish because they are effective at killing the parasite or pathogen without killing the host. Every single medication for fish has its place in human medication hecause they work.

On para 1, a good point. Yes and no. We can get to a certain point and say that's probably a gram negative bacterial infection. But which bacterial type - I think the information could be better compiled. Then better selection of med.


Para 3 - it's when meds become useless that it becomes a problem. We shouldn't be speeding that process along. Tetracycline used to work, now it doesn't - largely though over use as a cure all for poor animal husbandry.

See last line of abstract. It's not the greatest piece of work I've read I will confess. Would of liked to have seen some independent control points.

http://www.iatp.org/files/Bacterial_...ine_in_Chi.pdf

Para. 2 - I agree. Sensible use in a fish tank should be reasonable. Now defining sensible use seems harder.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:49 AM   #134
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I remember when I was managing a lfs in the early '80's there was NO difference between the major antibiotics used in the industry and those used for humans. as a matter of fact is was/is a lot cheaper to use "human" meds than it is using the same thing packaged for fish.


any thoughts of "superbugs" cross contaminating from a hospital to an aquarium is silly.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:49 AM   #135
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As with any medication, over use or broad indiscriminate use can lead to resistant strains of the diseases these antibiotics were meant to treat. It's what is happening in the meat, poultry and fish industries in the U.S. People are being exposed to antibiotics through the milk they drink, the beef and chicken they eat as well as some farm raised fish which is making it harder to cure humans of "simple" disease that, in the old days, a single shot of pennicilin would have cured. The issue with fish and fish tanks is that it is through these that the resistant strains are also being created and infecting people. So should antibiotics be so readily available to the average person just because he/she has a fish tank? HOWEVER, I've saved a number of fish using antibotics so I use them when called for but I use them only when called for and not in a " just in case" scenario. Should I have to suffer the loss of a fish pet because of someone else's irresponsible use of medications? I am very disappointed at what medications I can no longer get. Some of which I know were "miracle" drugs as far as I was concerned. But I understand whats going on. It just sucks!!! But this is why keeping a healthy tank is more important than ever because the "cure" for most problems is prevention. A healthy tank, properly stocked and maintained, will help prevent many diseases in the long run thus eliminating the need for medications.



Sorry, I think I went off tangent. lol I hope I made a good point.

Can I ask why they are no longer available?

I've heard that here as well.
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Old 03-21-2015, 06:08 PM   #136
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Ethics

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I remember when I was managing a lfs in the early '80's there was NO difference between the major antibiotics used in the industry and those used for humans. as a matter of fact is was/is a lot cheaper to use "human" meds than it is using the same thing packaged for fish.


any thoughts of "superbugs" cross contaminating from a hospital to an aquarium is silly.

So this would imply the same bacteria in both fish and humans OR that the med is effective on a wide range of bacteria types that span ones that cause humans problems and also different bacteria types that cause fish problems? Hope that makes sense.

Ok, on second para - why is it silly? Is it that even going to the scale of a pond or 20 tanks and even if preventive dosing is done in say medicated feed - the scale of influence is still too small? So worse case is a business with a small pond of fish uses medicated feed to keep the fish looking good for customers. Or someone breeding fish for local sale in say 20 tanks uses medicated foods quite a lot. I'm not say anyone does or it is bad, just setting a volume scale I could see here as applicable.


Here, it seems to be highly regulated on over the counter antibiotics even down to one fish tank. Much tighter than US. I'm wondering why if it is 'silly' this policy got to where it has today. Worse some info I'm reading is suggesting policy should be even tighter in other links. I'm stuffed if I know how.

http://www.ava.com.au/12029

http://www.ava.com.au/newsarticle/it...awareness-week

http://www.ava.com.au/12036

On the face of it, it seems we have blanket bans here where over the counter meds could be a little more accessible. Yeah, I know - I can see potential for abuse of that straight away but that could be solved. Some human meds here I have to sign for and it goes on a register. Apparently that checks I'm not buying large quantities for other purposes. I'd happily do that at the lfs if that meant more access to meds (tetracycline is the sole antibiotic we can get here over the counter) and it would be much cheaper than a vet visit.
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Old 03-21-2015, 06:27 PM   #137
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So this would imply the same bacteria in both fish and humans OR that the med is effective on a wide range of bacteria types that span ones that cause humans problems and also different bacteria types that cause fish problems? Hope that makes sense.
Bacteria is separated into two primary groups. Gram negative and gram positive. This refers to the type of cell wall that they have. Antibiotics are separated into 3 groups, those that target gram negative, those that target gram positive, and the broad spectrum that targets both.

Thats the reason that human antibiotics are useful on fish, the meds work on relatively universal traits of bacteria.

Quote:
Ok, on second para - why is it silly? Is it that even going to the scale of a pond or 20 tanks and even if preventive dosing is done in say medicated feed - the scale of influence is still too small? So worse case is a business with a small pond of fish uses medicated feed to keep the fish looking good for customers. Or someone breeding fish for local sale in say 20 tanks uses medicated foods quite a lot. I'm not say anyone does or it is bad, just setting a volume scale I could see here as applicable.
That carefree attitude of using meds is a problem, but is rarely done by the common hobbyist.

Quote:
Here, it seems to be highly regulated on over the counter antibiotics even down to one fish tank. Much tighter than US. I'm wondering why if it is 'silly' this policy got to where it has today. Worse some info I'm reading is suggesting policy should be even tighter in other links. I'm stuffed if I know how.

http://www.ava.com.au/12029

http://www.ava.com.au/newsarticle/it...awareness-week

http://www.ava.com.au/12036

On the face of it, it seems we have blanket bans here where over the counter meds could be a little more accessible. Yeah, I know - I can see potential for abuse of that straight away but that could be solved. Some human meds here I have to sign for and it goes on a register. Apparently that checks I'm not buying large quantities for other purposes. I'd happily do that at the lfs if that meant more access to meds (tetracycline is the sole antibiotic we can get here over the counter) and it would be much cheaper than a vet visit.
Aquarium meds are getting tighter control because rhere isnt anyone lobbying for us politically. Because of that we have become scapegoats for everything related to the aquaric world and medicines have taken a hit because of that.

I would put money on a single large cattle farming operation using more antibiotics than most of the country compared to squarists.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:49 PM   #138
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Can I ask why they are no longer available?

I've heard that here as well.
To my knowledge, Governmental controls. It's why companies like Aquatronics closed up shop ( although I understand some of their products are still available under a different name.) People were using them on themselves instead of going through proper channels which is also why, I've been told, they are now in powder form instead of pills. Much harder to swallow the nasty tasting powder than the single pill.
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:24 AM   #139
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To my knowledge, Governmental controls. It's why companies like Aquatronics closed up shop ( although I understand some of their products are still available under a different name.) People were using them on themselves instead of going through proper channels which is also why, I've been told, they are now in powder form instead of pills. Much harder to swallow the nasty tasting powder than the single pill.

Good point. I was aware of some use in illegal drugs and survivalist camps, not so much this (not sure I'd be game to try that, doesn't take much to start breaking antibiotics down by several different classes and seems some of the older ones could be quite toxic). Thanks for the info.

It seems govt controls here as well targeting 'companion pets'. Which seems somewhat of a catch all.
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Old 03-29-2015, 11:47 AM   #140
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This one might make some of you blow a gasket... Especially the 2nd main story down...

http://www.reddit.com/r/Aquariums/co...what_are_your/


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