Ethics

[J.Mcpeak]

Read this!

Painful fish deaths? You might be guilty? | Blog | Practical Fishkeeping
(It's about all the methods available with a breakdown of each)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Sorry, the Scottish in me is coming out .

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A Glaswegian kiss is on the horizon!

 

[Delapool]

How about does the fish store have a responsibility to sell you the right fish or is it up to the buyer? I guess I'm thinking of obvious stuff like buying a 5 gal tank with a goldfish or oscar.

 

[ImACoolguy]

How about does the fish store have a responsibility to sell you the right fish or is it up to the buyer? I guess I'm thinking of obvious stuff like buying a 5 gal tank with a goldfish or oscar.

This right here is a source of many fish deaths IMO. Kid sees beautiful Oscar and gets a 10 gallon tank, parents don't know any better and associate wants to make money, not long after you got a dead Oscar.

I go to my LFS often and I see kids all the time wanting cichlids, Bala Sharks, and other big fish for their little tanks. Some associates care but a lot of times the manager will step in and let the kid have it.

I am willing to bet a majority of fish deaths happen this way.

Another thing is not cycling the tank. I killed 4 goldfish, a gourami, 2 Angels, 2 pictus cats and terrified some tetras before I knew "cycling" existed. It seems to be quite a common thing and we see tons of threads on here about cloudy water and fish deaths that usually results in an uncycled tank.

Outside of disease I would say that is the 2 biggest sources for fish deaths. And it is mainly due to stores selling fish improperly and lack of research on fish keeping.

Information needs to get out about cycling and ethical fish keeping so it can steer away people who realize that this hobby requires lots of work and attention. We would have many less fish deaths if more information on fish care was spread. Like for every fish purchase you get a small packet that explains cycling and it's importance for the health of your fish. There's an idea.

Sorry that's my rant I just hate to see parents buying Bala Sharks for kids because the box of their 30 gallon tank has a picture of 4 Bala's on it.
It's a recipe for disaster.


Caleb

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[Delapool]

I really agree on a small info brochure. And not something from a company either.

'You should measure ph - then use our products to fix....' - that really annoys me when sales is trying to sell stuff under the guise of being helpful.

 

[keegster803]

Luckily my petsmart told me that I had to cycle my tank, and they also told me what could go in my tank at that time (10 gallon) I only got 3 male guppies. But they told me that fish-in cycling was much easier. But after 3 dead guppies, my tank became cycled. They didn't tell us that we had to do 30-50% pwcs everyday while cycling.


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[keegster803]

And I prefer the ice slushy as the fish goes into shock so quick, that it doesn't even feel the pain, but only if you do it to where the water is only starting to freeze


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[J.Mcpeak]

(They still market 17 litre tanks for goldfish!)

D, I agree with the marketing pitch! That's why so many people have more chemical volume than water volume! Most of those "things" (I should say products?) are really not needed by the majority who purchase them.

I also agree with the cool GUY! Even I have stepped in to avoid a poorly placed fish, gibbiceps in a biorb! No madam, you really don't want that fish! Now about the manager, I think it's obnoxious that when being told no, some people step over the heads of the sales person, "I demand to see the manager"

That's why lots of shops (except dedicated fish stores) lack skilled staff, they are constantly being undermined by said customer type. So why am I here? They move on. . .

Then we are left with people who clearly lack the knowledge (now I realise some of these individuals are beginners who do care, we all started here!) some of them however, really do not care about fish, nor do they wish to care!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Luckily my petsmart told me that I had to cycle my tank, and they also told me what could go in my tank at that time (10 gallon) I only got 3 male guppies. But they told me that fish-in cycling was much easier. But after 3 dead guppies, my tank became cycled. They didn't tell us that we had to do 30-50% pwcs everyday while cycling.


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Prime example!
"Please sir/madam, bring a separate sample of water and the fish carcass, we will do a water water test free of charge, hmmm, your ammonia is quite high, that's the reason your fish died, sorry we can't replace these for free under our policy"

"Here, would you like to buy these fish today?"

 

[keegster803]

Prime example!
"Please sir/madam, bring a separate sample of water and the fish carcass, we will do a water water test free of charge, hmmm, your ammonia is quite high, that's the reason your fish died, sorry we can't replace these for free under our policy"

"Here, would you like yo buy these fish today?"

Luckily the employee that sold me the fish told me that if they died during the cycling that he would just give me a replacement.


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[J.Mcpeak]

Luckily the employee that sold me the fish told me that if they died during the cycling that he would just give me a replacement.


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You're lucky! The fish wasn't! (Not an attack on you)

One fish store tried to pull me on 0.1 nitrite, I took them to one side, "both of us know that isn't deadly, while it isn't good, it most certainly isn't lethal"
More words were exchanged, but on a friendly level, I got my replacement fish.

I wonder how many people actually take responsibility? Without further ado.
(The nitrite was is the bottle, I used an empty whiskey bottle! Don't do this!)

This was from a reputable dealer too! After this event they know not to fob me off, but now I'm reluctant to hand over my money here.
(It's still one of my favourite shops, that's how bad the others are!)
I did have a wealth of data and photographs etc. to back me up so I think that really helped otherwise I'm not so sure? (One more shop off the list!)
It did take some convincing on my part, and without all the pictures I'm not so sure it would've ended well?

The real gripe, my water tests are better than some points of purchase!
It seems the less the customer knows, the better for the dealer!
(Again, I realise some are very good, I shouldn't stereotype, but guilty until proven otherwise, that's the way they see it)

 

[TMRC Exotics]

What about the ethics of the actual pet stores keeping practices. For example my local petsmart has really low pH in their tanks. Insanely low, somewhere around 5. All their fish cichlid or tetra share the same recycled water. I would bet their systems constantly undergo mini cycles too with the huge swings in bio load at restocking time.

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[J.Mcpeak]

Duty of care? (Not in this example!)

What about the ethics of the actual pet stores keeping practices. For example my local petsmart has really low pH in their tanks. Insanely low, somewhere around 5. All their fish cichlid or tetra share the same recycled water. I would bet their systems constantly undergo mini cycles too with the huge swings in bio load at restocking time.

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The fish,
LDA 1 Panaqolus sp.
Small Loricariidae from Brazil, Rio Negro. "Gold stripe panaque"
Approx size 2.5"/65mm.
Absolute gem of a fish! Impulse buy! Shop shutting down everything half price! Oops! (I have space )
Mon 29th December 2014.

The water,
LDA 1 Transport water 1!
What do I say?
The amount of times I see yours or my water being put to question following the death of a fish purchase. This is incredible! This is the test results for the LDA 1 shipping water. Nitrate is the highest I've ever seen! I mean that changed colour faster than ever, it was off the charts before the solution was even mixed properly. I approximate the level to be around 200mg/l based on the results from the quarantine tank nitrate test.
Overall TDS approx 4 times local water. It seems setting a tank for a fish is not the best way to go. Set the tank for the water!

The water (2),
LDA 1 Transport water 2!
GH almost twice local tap water (German scale). Nitrate reading ridiculous. Result may be compromised as the nitrate test was carried out the following morning, however, the tests from the tank suggest that it is about right. GH/TDS tests carried out same day.


(This shop was shutting down but really, these results were ridiculous!)

 

[TMRC Exotics]

Wow. Not surprising.

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[J.Mcpeak]

Wow. Not surprising.

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Yeah, I thought wow! And I was surprised!
I think I saved a fish that day!

Most of the time it isn't worth noting, but this is for sure the worst example of water from a shop that I have ever seen!

It gets me that they check our water! Who else checks them?

 

[SpaceFish42]

Fortunately my LFS is very responsible and when I was new to the hobby they even stopped me from buying fish! However Petsmart and Petco (Petco especially) are on the complete other end of the spectrum, and I see hundreds of goldfish in a 15 gallon tank, rotting fish stuck to the filter intakes, sick and dying fish in the corners, etc. what really disgusts me is when I see a seven or eight year old come in with their parent and just start picking out random fish, without even having a cycled tank yet. And the pet store doesn't even stop them!

 

[Mebbid]

Fortunately my LFS is very responsible and when I was new to the hobby they even stopped me from buying fish! However Petsmart and Petco (Petco especially) are on the complete other end of the spectrum, and I see hundreds of goldfish in a 15 gallon tank, rotting fish stuck to the filter intakes, sick and dying fish in the corners, etc. what really disgusts me is when I see a seven or eight year old come in with their parent and just start picking out random fish, without even having a cycled tank yet. And the pet store doesn't even stop them!

Have you ever tried to tell a customer "no"? It generally doesn't go over well. Even if you do and the customer complains the manager will make you sell them the fish... That or fire you.

The conditions vary wildly between stores. My local petsmart is fairly nice compared to most of them. The tanks are lightly stocked, fish look healthy, and they maintain things very well.

 

[ImACoolguy]

Fortunately my LFS is very responsible and when I was new to the hobby they even stopped me from buying fish! However Petsmart and Petco (Petco especially) are on the complete other end of the spectrum, and I see hundreds of goldfish in a 15 gallon tank, rotting fish stuck to the filter intakes, sick and dying fish in the corners, etc. what really disgusts me is when I see a seven or eight year old come in with their parent and just start picking out random fish, without even having a cycled tank yet. And the pet store doesn't even stop them!

That's what my main point was in my rant they are big box stores most don't care they just want your money. Fortunately SOME of the employees know quite a bit at my PetSmart. They will strongly advise not to mix said fish like cichlids with say danios. But they won't refuse a sale to avoid getting managers involved. I'm really tempted now to make a brochure about ethical fish keeping and cycling a tank. I might start on it tonight. Then using that petition website to implement the brochure into big box stores like PetSmart and Petco.


Caleb

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[Stacey W.]

That's what my main point was in my rant they are big box stores most don't care they just want your money. Fortunately SOME of the employees know quite a bit at my PetSmart. They will strongly advise not to mix said fish like cichlids with say danios. But they won't refuse a sale to avoid getting managers involved. I'm really tempted now to make a brochure about ethical fish keeping and cycling a tank. I might start on it tonight. Then using that petition website to implement the brochure into big box stores like PetSmart and Petco.


Caleb

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Even some of the Petsmarts that have an attached veterinary hospitals want your money. One of our client's at our vet hospital went there because it was close at the time. There dog need antibiotics due to a bite wound they wanted to give an injection of antibiotics to this 100lb dog. We give the same kind of injection to cats because it's a smaller dose therefore it's cheaper and lasts 2 weeks (easier than giving a pill). They refused to write a prescription of antibiotics for the client. The client walked out due to the fact the injection was going to be approximately $150, ouch.

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[Mebbid]

Even some of the Petsmarts that have an attached veterinary hospitals want your money. One of our client's at our vet hospital went there because it was close at the time. There dog need antibiotics due to a bite wound they wanted to give an injection of antibiotics to this 100lb dog. We give the same kind of injection to cats because it's a smaller dose therefore it's cheaper and lasts 2 weeks (easier than giving a pill). They refused to write a prescription of antibiotics for the client. The client walked out due to the fact the injection was going to be approximately $150, ouch.

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Thats not surprising tbh. If someone screws an injection up it could cause some major problems.