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Old 02-28-2015, 06:43 AM   #51
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I could well imagine someone writing letters to politicians telling of the horrendous nature of fish keeping. That's our opposition!

I like to hope that maybe several of those politicians are fish keepers themselves, perhaps they are members of a forum which does give consideration to ethical fish keeping guidelines and have seen that aquarium keepers are by and large seeking/passing help to do the right thing by their tanks. For myself, I'm much more aware of the need to have a sustainable environment these days and I like to think keeping fish has helped educate me on that. Not that I'm about to go out and eat grass or anything and live in a stone hut but better informed.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:39 AM   #52
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Ignore PETA! I corrected that statement, it's made out to make Fishkeeping impossible!
It was obviously compiled by a person reading books with no understanding of keeping fish!

This was my reply,
Fish in Tanks? No, Thanks! | Companion Animal Factsheets | Companion Animals | The Issues | PETA
Where Fish Really Come From
The popularity of keeping tropical fish has created a virtually unregulated industry that catches and breeds as many fish as possible with little regard for the animals themselves. While many species of coral are protected under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, most of the fish who end up in aquariums are not.(1)
"Are you sure?
http://breteschethibault.free.fr/art...n%20issues.pdf"

Some species, such as the Banggai cardinalfish, have become endangered because of overfishing, a practice commonly employed to satisfy the aquarium industry.(4)
"While overfishing does take place the bangai we do care!
http://www.ssn.org/Meetings/cop/cop1...nalfish_EN.pdf"

Collectors douse the coral reefs with cyanide, which is ingested by the fish who live there, and as reported in Scientific American, “[t]he resulting asphyxiation stuns some fish and sends others into spasms, making them easy to grab by hand or net.”(5) Half the affected fish die on the reef, and 40 percent of those who survive the initial poisoning die before they reach an aquarium.(6) Cyanide also kills the coral reefs themselves, and marine biologists rank it as one of the biggest dangers in Southeast Asian waters.(7)
"This practice is disgusting, fortunately there are a great deal of tank spawned/fragged corals available in the trade this is true of some fish species too."

Some fish farms are seeking new market niches by creating fish breeds that would never occur in nature, treating fish as ornaments instead of living animals. Some breeders even “paint” fish by injecting fluorescent dyes into the animals’ bodies or altering their genetic makeup to make them more attractive to buyers.(11)
"A large percentage of the Fishkeeping community will not buy injected or otherwise died fish, many petitions have been in existence for years."

Fish have cognitive abilities that equal and sometimes surpass those of nonhuman primates. They can recognize individuals, use tools, and maintain complex social relationships. Fish communicate with one another through a range of low-frequency sounds—from buzzes and clicks to yelps and sobs. These sounds, which are audible to humans only with the use of special instruments, communicate emotional states such as alarm or delight and help with courtship.(14) The pumps and filters necessary in many home aquariums can interfere with this communication. “[A]t the least, we’re disrupting their communication; at worst, we’re driving them bonkers,” says ichthyologist Phillip Lobel.(15)
"Surely the relatively low hum off the filter is nothing compared to the torrent sounds that are the Nile or amazon rivers?"

Biologists say that there is no safe way to return captive fish to their natural environments—which are often located in a completely different region of the world—because of the difficulty in locating such a habitat and the possibility of introducing disease to the other fish there. Researchers have found many species of non-native fish, including predatory species, living off the coast of Florida, and they attribute these populations to careless aquarium owners.(18) These fish pose a real threat to native species. Never flush fish down the toilet in the hope of “freeing” them, as seen in the popular movie Finding Nemo. Even if a fish survived the shock of being put into the swirling fresh water, he or she would die a painful death in the plumbing system or at the water treatment plant.(19)
"(These people give the rest of us a bad name) I can't be held accountable for the actions of somebody else.
If you already have fish, you can make their lives easier by providing them with an environment that is as much like their natural habitat as possible. While captive fish can never live natural lives, the following tips will help ensure that they are as happy as possible:
(Who compiled your tip sheet? I'm sure they do not keep fish)
I have modified it to a more realistic proposition."

Please don’t support the tropical fish trade by purchasing fish.
? See below.
• The more space that fish have, the happier and healthier they will be. Their needs vary, so check with an expert or consult a good fish book to determine their requirements. One general guideline is that you should provide 3 gallons of water for every 1 inch of fish.(20)
This rule is outdated, large fish consume more oxygen and have a larger biomass and consequent load on the system, this should be taken into account when stocking fish, consider the adult size of the specimens you wish to acquire.
• Treat tap water properly before putting it into the aquarium, as most municipal water contains chlorine, which can kill fish. The type of chemicals that you should use depends on your area’s water. Consult with a local tropical fish supply store to determine the proper treatment.
. . . .but previously you state don't go to a fish dealer?
• Different types of fish require different pH levels. Check the pH level daily for the first month and weekly thereafter.
Your pH will change over a 24 hour period. The maximum recorded changes can be noted at the minutes before lights off and the minutes before lights on.
• A filter to remove waste particles and noxious chemicals from the water is essential. Live plants help with this task and provide oxygen, shelter, hiding places, and the occasional snack.
(Providing a natural habitat is something serious fish keepers strive to achieve)
• A properly working air pump is necessary to provide oxygen.
Incorrect, a Venturi valve can be fitted to some in tank filters.
• Fish need a constant temperature, generally between 68°F and 76°F, but you should check with a fish supply store for information that is specific to the type of fish that you are keeping.(21) Automatic aquarium heaters monitor the water temperature and turn the heater on and off as needed. Attaching a small thermometer to the tank will help you ensure that the heater is functioning properly.
Incorrect, there are three bands of fish commonly available in the trade, tropical, temperate and cold. > 22'C, 18-22'C and <18'C. Daily temperature fluctuations are natural in the wild, overnight, with rainfall and also seasonally.
• The natural waste of fish emits ammonia, which can accumulate to toxic levels, so clean the tank regularly, but never empty the tank completely. Be sure to clean the glass well with a pad or a brush to prevent algae growth.
Cleaning the tank is of little consequence, a good understanding of the nitrogenous cycle should be advised here instead. All of the elements involved (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) are toxic to varying degrees.
• Create places for the fish to hide and explore. Ceramic objects, natural rocks, and plants work well. Make sure that all objects are thoroughly cleaned and disinfected before they are put into the tank. Do not use metal objects, as they will rust.
Fair point. (Be carful to select a good method of disinfectant, one that will not destroy the bacteria colonies acquired in the nitrogenous cycle)
• Be aware of the environment outside the aquarium. Suddenly switching on a bright light in a dark room can startle fish, and vibrations from a television or a stereo can alarm and stress them.
Fair point.
• Keep all harmful chemicals away from the aquarium. Cigarette smoke, paint fumes, and aerosol sprays can be toxic if they are absorbed into the water.
Fair point.
• The aquarium should be in a spot where temperature and light are constant and controllable. Tropical fish supply stores may be able to advise you on the best amount of light for the fish you are keeping. Remember that direct sunlight and drafts from nearby doors or windows can change the water temperature, and fumes from a nearby kitchen or workshop can injure the fish.
(Don't go to a dealer?)
• Don’t overfeed! Uneaten food and waste material are broken down into ammonia and nitrites, which are toxic. One expert recommends providing only as much food as your fish can eat in 30 seconds.(22)
Makes sense but it's a terror tactic, the ammonia is converted into nitrate by nitrosamonas bacteria, the nitrite is converted into nitrate (the least deadly) by nitrospira bacteria. The nitrate is removed by dilution on the part of the fish keeper doing water changes. This is the nitrogenous cycle.
• If a fish seems sick or lethargic, take him or her to a vet. Fish can be medicated, anesthetized, given shots, and operated on, just like other animals. Take along a separate sample of the tank water.
Some fish are sedentary naturally, perhaps this is ill advised.
• Most fish enjoy companionship. If you have a single fish, check with friends and neighbors to find another loner to adopt—but don’t support the fish trade by going to a dealer.
Be careful with this, some fish are best kept alone. Research all purchases before acquisition.
• Supply stores and catalogs have clear plastic dividers available that can be used to create a safe section in a large tank for a betta fish who is living in a “community” aquarium. Make sure that the divider fits securely in the tank and provides necessary access to the surface.
But you say this, Siamese fighting fish, who are often sold as “decorations” or party favors, are fighting for their lives as their popularity grows. Pet shops, discount superstores, florists, and even online catalogs sell Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens) in tiny cups or flower vases to consumers who are often uneducated about proper betta care. These tiny containers are not suitable for any fish.
This is the advice given when "Fragile tropical fish, who were born to dwell in the majestic seas and forage among brilliantly colored coral reefs, suffer miserably when they are forced to spend their lives in glass tanks. The same is true of river fish. Robbed of their natural habitats and denied the ability to travel freely, they must swim around endlessly in the same few cubic inches of water."
Research all purchases before acquisition.
(I've been successfully keeping and breeding fish for nine years)


(Then I got some silly statements from people who have no idea what they are talking about!)

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Old 02-28-2015, 08:40 AM   #53
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I think it is ethical to keep fish when you give them a better environment than the ones they had at the pet store. For example, if you get a betta that had lived it's entire life in a cup, and then put it in a ten gallon tank, that would be ethical. However, if you got a baby oscar that you put in a ten gallon, that would be very unethical.

Many would make the exact opposite argument here. Buy "rescuing" these fish you are spending money so it only incentivizes the store to buy and sell more.


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Old 02-28-2015, 09:00 AM   #54
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Many would make the exact opposite argument here. Buy "rescuing" these fish you are spending money so it only incentivizes the store to buy and sell more.


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The number of bettas rescued by true aquarists is a tiny minority compared to those bought to be ornaments in tiny bowls. Even if all of the "rescuing" stopped then they still have an enormous market.
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:45 AM   #55
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I'm slightly late on the treatment of fish at the stores.. but this was at my Walmart last night.
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:55 AM   #56
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I'm slightly late on the treatment of fish at the stores.. but this was at my Walmart last night.
Ohh my, poor babies. Don't they need brackish water to thrive? Also they are crammed in that small tank. They didn't even give them anywhere to hide.

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Old 02-28-2015, 12:07 PM   #57
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Ohh my, poor babies. Don't they need brackish water to thrive? Also they are crammed in that small tank. They didn't even give them anywhere to hide.

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They need brackish, period actually. They can live in full saltwater although I don't think it's essential. They didn't have anything in the label about them being brackish, although I didn't expect it to be accurate anyways.
It's terrible though, the one in the back swimming around was freaking out. I think I'm gonna have to get at least one of the healthy ones to live with my GSP puffers. And the tanks were all freezing. I should've taken a picture of all the Silver Dollars they had crammed into a tank as well.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:17 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lindenthaler.9 View Post
They need brackish, period actually. They can live in full saltwater although I don't think it's essential. They didn't have anything in the label about them being brackish, although I didn't expect it to be accurate anyways.
It's terrible though, the one in the back swimming around was freaking out. I think I'm gonna have to get at least one of the healthy ones to live with my GSP puffers. And the tanks were all freezing. I should've taken a picture of all the Silver Dollars they had crammed into a tank as well.
look out those guys get pretty large, like a foot-foot and a half. I would also be wary of buying from a source like Walmart due to diseases and parasites that may be present.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:21 PM   #59
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They need brackish, period actually. They can live in full saltwater although I don't think it's essential. They didn't have anything in the label about them being brackish, although I didn't expect it to be accurate anyways.
It's terrible though, the one in the back swimming around was freaking out. I think I'm gonna have to get at least one of the healthy ones to live with my GSP puffers. And the tanks were all freezing. I should've taken a picture of all the Silver Dollars they had crammed into a tank as well.
Yeah, I doubt that Walmart has brackish water in with those guys.

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Old 02-28-2015, 12:27 PM   #60
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look out those guys get pretty large, like a foot-foot and a half. I would also be wary of buying from a source like Walmart due to diseases and parasites that may be present.
I know what size they get. Luckily my GSPs are already getting a very big tank.
Parasites I don't mind treating for because I treat all my puffers when I first get them.. but other diseases I am concerned about. And the quarantine tank is currently in use. This is actually the same reason I didn't buy the really healthy looking one I saw at a LFS a month or so back.
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