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Old 06-21-2014, 04:33 AM   #21
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I feel that shows like tanked have contributed to bad aquarium advice. People watch the show and believe that keeping fish is as simple as getting the tank, adding water, and adding tons of fish a day later. As hobbyists, our job is to educate beginners and get them to understand the importance of research, patience, water changes, and planning. The most misunderstood and mistreated fish in the hobby seem to be bettas and goldfish. It doesn't help that goldfish are given away as prizes in some places and have been displayed in bowls with little space and no filtration. Bettas are displayed in vases with little room for air flow and not enough room to survive in. The bad thing is that these poor conditions cause the fish to die an early death. People would view the fish as disposable and a short lived animal that doesn't require much to live. I want to be the voice for these misunderstood animals. To educate the public that these fish are intelligent, beautiful, and deserve better care than some people give them.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:21 AM   #22
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I still get coral lists from my suppliers even though I am no longer in retail. I can't let them go I guess....Paying 50 bucks for a fish I can get for 8 dollars is probably a motivator....
Anyway, the amount of coral and fish collected from the ocean is staggering. I don't believe this is as small an impact as some say. I don't think things are getting any better than they used to be. Mom and pop stores are closing, but they are being replaced by MANY, who get a business license, and start peddling from their basements, as I did. I'm sure that I imported more coral and fish than any one store in my area. Multiple times I have seen the wholesale suppliers send out emails like "there will be no Australia this week due to not enough collected" or something to that effect.
I wish it was fact that salt water fish are reproducing faster than we are collecting them, but it just doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting.
As for pollution and climactic changes killing the reefs, of course it is, but so are we.
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Old 06-22-2014, 11:02 AM   #23
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Many many many good points are made in this post but there is a bright side to these as well. There are quite a few fish that we have that are fairly common in our industry that are endangered or nearly extinct.

The red tailed shark is a great example of this as it was long though extinct in the wild. They just recently found a small wild population but even the days of that population are numbered. When it's wiped out of the rivers it will remain a popular aquarium fish. The same goes for a number of other freshwater fish in our hobby.

For coral collection I agree that we collect far far too much coral from the wild and should rely more on aqua culture than collection. But again, we run into the issue of the coral reefs having a tentative existence, especially due to climate change. We know for a fact that climate change will wreak major havoc on the coral reefs in the future and if we maintain a living population of fish and coral then it's feasible through projects like this
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:05 AM   #24
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Interesting discussion.
being another old fart who managed a lfs in the early eighties, I remember the dynamite collection technique and cyanide (I doubt it's not still being used) and the enormous losses incurred when importing directly from collectors.
Back then keeping coral was a fantasy for 99% of hobbyist, and yes, the recommendation was a large tank, the bigger the better. Breeding programs were just starting with salt water, (I even had a pair of some of the first tank raised percula's )

I do agree with most of the viewpoints expressed to one degree or another and would like to reiterate that if it were not for the hobby, there would have been no impetus to develop the science and methodologies for keeping and raising the wide variety of marine creatures we have available today.
The $$$ the hobby generates pushed the envelope much faster and greater than any pure scientific research ever could or would have.
So like every other thing in life, it's a two edged sword.
The hobby has damaged/depleted the natural reserves/habitats...
BUT
It has also driven the research into how to keep and breed/rear these creatures and with great success thus far considering any shmuck with experience/time and tanks can frag corals and help to propagate and maintain the species and some of you folks have managed to breed marine critters yourselves.
I couldn't do that 30 years ago, so kudos to the hobby in that respect.

The only thing in this thread that I feel is in error and completely wrong is the following;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Sager View Post
We are the only specie that lives above it's local environmental capacities. When we run out of our local resource, we look elsewhere for it to get it .....
That is incorrect.
Any species, plant or animal, in the absence of natural predation with over populate and over-exploit their resources and when it's gone, they migrate if possible, same as us "evil humans".
That is why there are laws forbidding the importing of certain species of plants and animals, it's why there are hunting seasons and "culling's", etc., etc.

It just seems as if humans are the only ones who do that because we are the apex predator of the planet, it really is that simple.


Now if you want to make the argument that humans have caused a lot of the population issues with other species by removing natural predators and are still ultimately to blame, I'm right there with ya, but as far as the quoted portion, we are doing exactly the same as any other creature on the planet would if they were sitting in the our position on top of the heap.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:23 AM   #25
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Fish have no capacity for emotion therefore they can not feel happy or sad. They also aren't self aware animals so the have no sense of self therefore not knowing they aren't in the ocean or wherever they came from. I try to take as few fish from the wild as possible. The only WC fish I have are saltwater and out of five fish in my tank only one came from the ocean. I do think there are some fish that shouldn't leave the ocean ie. yellow tangs until we get the population back in check. I also don't think that unless you are a public aquarium or a coral propagator who is trying to take their areas dependence of this coral off the wild that you should have wild collected coral. I think that places like SeaWorld (not Miami Seaquarium as it certainly isn't ethical to keep a killer whale in a tank that is wayyyyy to small and keep her isolated from her species her entire life) should be the only place to keep large fish and animals that are low in numbers in the wild. They have thousands of people coming in everyday to see that animal. The hobbiest might only have 20 people see their tank in that fishes life time. I do think this is an ethical hobby if you do it right.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clownfishlover View Post
Fish have no capacity for emotion therefore they can not feel happy or sad. They also aren't self aware animals so the have no sense of self therefore not knowing they aren't in the ocean or wherever they came from. I try to take as few fish from the wild as possible. The only WC fish I have are saltwater and out of five fish in my tank only one came from the ocean. I do think there are some fish that shouldn't leave the ocean ie. yellow tangs until we get the population back in check. I also don't think that unless you are a public aquarium or a coral propagator who is trying to take their areas dependence of this coral off the wild that you should have wild collected coral. I think that places like SeaWorld (not Miami Seaquarium as it certainly isn't ethical to keep a killer whale in a tank that is wayyyyy to small and keep her isolated from her species her entire life) should be the only place to keep large fish and animals that are low in numbers in the wild. They have thousands of people coming in everyday to see that animal. The hobbiest might only have 20 people see their tank in that fishes life time. I do think this is an ethical hobby if you do it right.
I'm very curious as to where and how you came upon this information. Would you care to enlighten us?


Because personally, I found these to be quite interesting

Fish have feelings and deserve more respect - expert - Life & Style - NZ Herald News

New Research Will Change The Way You View Fish Forever
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:57 AM   #27
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Ethics and the hobby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mebbid View Post
I'm very curious as to where and how you came upon this information. Would you care to enlighten us?





Because personally, I found these to be quite interesting



Fish have feelings and deserve more respect - expert - Life & Style - NZ Herald News



New Research Will Change The Way You View Fish Forever
Fish may not be self aware to the extent of human, dolphin or monkeys, however they are aware of themselves on a lesser extent.
They also have some sense of emotion, and some countries in Asia even believe that fish are the smartest animals on the planet, and even the key to the soul.
It is clear to us when a fish is stressed, correct? The behavior changes and in human eyes (since they can't speak) the fish seems unhappy.
My association with this thread, ends here.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:03 AM   #28
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If fish were emotionless, instinct driven entities than how would you explain human drugs such as Xanax and Prozac having an effect on their behavior? Surely medications designed to alter human emotion and feelings would not make a noticeable difference in the the behavior of something with zero capacity for emotion??

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Old 06-24-2014, 11:22 AM   #29
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It's even simpler than all that, they share the same basic brain structures responsible for "emotion", same as all vertebrates including humans.
What is different is we also possess a very highly developed frontal cortex which is the area responsible for self-awareness, and most higher thought process'.
We humans apply many layers of interpretation, quantification, qualification, and meaning to these very basic predominantly physiological reactions to environmental/external conditions.
Animals do not have the capacity to INTERPRET and COMMUNICATE these responses, or the cultural history that helps dictate "how" to interpret these "emotions" but they still experience them none the less.


Silly humans, always thinking we are so darn special.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:40 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB_Smith View Post
It's even simpler than all that, they share the same basic brain structures responsible for "emotion", same as all vertebrates including humans.
What is different is we also possess a very highly developed frontal cortex which is the area responsible for self-awareness, and most higher thought process'.
We humans apply many layers of interpretation, quantification, qualification, and meaning to these very basic predominantly physiological reactions to environmental/external conditions.
Animals do not have the capacity to INTERPRET and COMMUNICATE these responses, or the cultural history that helps dictate "how" to interpret these "emotions" but they still experience them none the less.


Silly humans, always thinking we are so darn special.
I disagree. The human brain as a whole is much more complex than any animal out there. I've never heard the frontal cortex being referred to as the area responsible for self awareness. But I digress, this thread went from being somewhat legit to an argument about neurophysiology...


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