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Old 04-01-2014, 06:49 PM   #141
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They wouldn't tackle it all at once though - wouldn't it be more like
.01 .02 .04 .08 .16 .32 .64 1.28

It would not actually build the bacteria to eat 4ppm all at once because each day there is the old bacteria that has to eat all the same food as the previous day, plus the new bacteria. It's not quite so linear.

edit: I guess/hypothesize
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Old 04-01-2014, 06:52 PM   #142
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Unrelated note: Although tests like ammonia and nitrite "keep" for days, I would not recommend keeping them over 24 hours. The ammonia vials developed a faint yellow tinge, but the nitrite vials are STAINED dark purple I tossed several out.

I have kept both tests for 24 hours before with no issues, but this time I kept them for about 72 hours. Bad idea...
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:18 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I don't think one dose of 4ppm ammonia would be enough to cycle a tank to any appreciable level. It would probably only cycle it to .5 or something so you will just have to dose more ammonia later.

Caliban - that would be some very helpful math. BUT you also don't want the pH to start off too HIGH. I think there has to be some dosing of baking soda in there. It's really not a big deal though. I think this method would require LESS testing and dosing.

Delapool - I'm not sure why the baking soda specifically sounds like a dealbreaker to you - the only thing you need to "redose" in this whole experiment is sodium bicarbonate, and only once. How is that so much worse than dosing ammonia all the time?


I want to reduce a lot of the "thinking". Dosing back up to 4ppm all the time. Testing ammonia every day and calculating how much more to add to dose it back up.
What is wrong with just dosing it and basically forgetting it? Sure, you have to test ammonia and pH every couple days. But the cycle doesn't FAIL if there is a pH crash and you are a day late noticing. Nitrification picks right back up when you bolster the pH back up.

Oh I think it's great but a ph crash possibility to me means more testing than I had anticipated. Having a kh test and baking soda on hand could be very useful for best cycle?

Also I'm wondering if say someone gets a bad mini-cycle, I think it would be great if we could say by the way 'your low ph/kh means you may get a ph crash at x point as you bb re-establish'.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:42 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Oh I think it's great but a ph crash possibility to me means more testing than I had anticipated. Having a kh test and baking soda on hand could be very useful for best cycle?

Also I'm wondering if say someone gets a bad mini-cycle, I think it would be great if we could say by the way 'your low ph/kh means you may get a ph crash at x point as you bb re-establish'.
I am still perplexed how you perceive that more testing would be involved with this method, as it does not involve any day-to-day testing/evaluating for Ammonia and zero re-dosing of ammonia. I would think ammonia and pH could be tested offhand once every 3 days or so and otherwise not thought about at all. pH only needs to be boosted if it's dangerously low. Everyone has baking soda in their kitchen, but I don't think you need a kH test. The pH test from the master kit is all that would be needed.

What I perceive is, under the current system:
Day 1: Dose ammonia to 4ppm
Days 2-4: nothing
Day 5: test ammonia, dose back up to 4ppm if needed
Day 6: test ammonia, dose back up to 4ppm if needed
Day 7: test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed
Day 8: test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed. Start testing nitrites.
Day 9: test nitrites, test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed.
Dax 10-X: Do it every single day.
Day X: Nitrites present! Now we testing ammonia AND nitrites every day .dose back up to 4pm if needed.
Day X+1: test ammonia and nitrites. dose back up to 4pm if needed.
etc etc etc etc etc
I see testing occurring EVERY DAY

My method I'm only testing all the time in my example for research purposes. In practice it really requires very little testing it's like this:
Day 1: Dose ammonia to 16ppm
Day 10: Test for nitrites, check pH, test ammonia
Day 13: Test for nitrites, check pH, test ammonia. If ammonia is obviously dropping, stop worrying about it and stop testing for it.
Day 16: Test for nitrites, check pH
Day 19: Test for nitrites, check pH
Day X: Test for nitrites, check pH. nitrites are gone. All done.

I am genuinely, sincerely curious how that isn't way easier from a work standpoint. There is no need to run a massive battery of tests every day, I'm only doing that to have a very complete picture of how this is going.

Edit: I'm not saying you have to like it! I just don't know why you think it's more work when it involves one single ammonia dose. It's ALMOST set it and forget it.
Keep in mind my tap water is MEGA CRAZY soft. TDS from my tap is 12-18ppm. People with hard water might not crash at all.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:58 AM   #145
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a) pH 7.88 (I must not have let all the baking soda integrate last night )
b) kH 11.5 (because of baking soda)
c) TDS up to 168, again because of baking soda
d) PO3 holding at 5
e) Ammonia is gone, as expected (as a note this cleared 4ppm in 24 hours, all my bacteria growth for ammonia doubling was pretty spot on)
f) Nitrites. Tough again. 8.83 ammonia allocated to nitrItes = 23.8 ppm
g) NitrAtes. Calling it 30 as it seems twice as dark as yesterday's, and the 50% is about the same as yesterday's. 8.17 ammonia allocated to nitrAtes = 30ppm

This should represent the nitrIte peak as there is presently no more ammonia to convert.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:01 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
They wouldn't tackle it all at once though - wouldn't it be more like
.01 .02 .04 .08 .16 .32 .64 1.28

It would not actually build the bacteria to eat 4ppm all at once because each day there is the old bacteria that has to eat all the same food as the previous day, plus the new bacteria. It's not quite so linear.

edit: I guess/hypothesize

Yes I guess it would be like this.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:22 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I am still perplexed how you perceive that more testing would be involved with this method, as it does not involve any day-to-day testing/evaluating for Ammonia and zero re-dosing of ammonia. I would think ammonia and pH could be tested offhand once every 3 days or so and otherwise not thought about at all. pH only needs to be boosted if it's dangerously low. Everyone has baking soda in their kitchen, but I don't think you need a kH test. The pH test from the master kit is all that would be needed.

What I perceive is, under the current system:
Day 1: Dose ammonia to 4ppm
Days 2-4: nothing
Day 5: test ammonia, dose back up to 4ppm if needed
Day 6: test ammonia, dose back up to 4ppm if needed
Day 7: test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed
Day 8: test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed. Start testing nitrites.
Day 9: test nitrites, test ammonia, dose back up to 4pm if needed.
Dax 10-X: Do it every single day.
Day X: Nitrites present! Now we testing ammonia AND nitrites every day .dose back up to 4pm if needed.
Day X+1: test ammonia and nitrites. dose back up to 4pm if needed.
etc etc etc etc etc
I see testing occurring EVERY DAY

My method I'm only testing all the time in my example for research purposes. In practice it really requires very little testing it's like this:
Day 1: Dose ammonia to 16ppm
Day 10: Test for nitrites, check pH, test ammonia
Day 13: Test for nitrites, check pH, test ammonia. If ammonia is obviously dropping, stop worrying about it and stop testing for it.
Day 16: Test for nitrites, check pH
Day 19: Test for nitrites, check pH
Day X: Test for nitrites, check pH. nitrites are gone. All done.

I am genuinely, sincerely curious how that isn't way easier from a work standpoint. There is no need to run a massive battery of tests every day, I'm only doing that to have a very complete picture of how this is going.

Edit: I'm not saying you have to like it! I just don't know why you think it's more work when it involves one single ammonia dose. It's ALMOST set it and forget it.
Keep in mind my tap water is MEGA CRAZY soft. TDS from my tap is 12-18ppm. People with hard water might not crash at all.

If you plan to run this experiment again maybe you could increase dkh to an averages hard tap water value at the beginning and see if ph crashes?
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:25 AM   #148
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If you plan to run this experiment again maybe you could increase dkh to an averages hard tap water value at the beginning and see if ph crashes?
I don't think i can raise kH without raising pH, and if pH is over 9.0 the studies show it inhibits nitrification (which by the way we should keep in mind when we look at cycle stalls in newbie area).
I can get close with my pH monitor of course, but optimal nitrification is really at 7.5. So I guess the question is, is it more important to be "set and forget", or optimal cycle speed?
In any case, I can run two and try it either way.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:55 AM   #149
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I don't think i can raise kH without raising pH, and if pH is over 9.0 the studies show it inhibits nitrification (which by the way we should keep in mind when we look at cycle stalls in newbie area).
I can get close with my pH monitor of course, but optimal nitrification is really at 7.5. So I guess the question is, is it more important to be "set and forget", or optimal cycle speed?
In any case, I can run two and try it either way.

Lol I dunno really, set and forget would easier right?

What is your tap dkh and tap ph?
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:00 AM   #150
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pH is appx neutral and kH currently around 2, but it changes. A couple months ago kH was 0. I haven't done the 24 hour tap test in a long time.
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