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Old 04-02-2014, 06:12 AM   #161
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I used a part as 1. So 1ppm ammonia uses 7.14ppm alkalinity. You can then convert this to dkh. I have done it. You might have to scroll up. I can't do it at the mo as I'm at work.

From what I understand. It is the carbonates like you say that increase alkalinity.

Apparently, carbonates are very unstable and need to find something to bind to for stability. The choose the hydrogen ion. When they bind they reduce or change the structure of hydrogen ions so because there is now less hydrogen ions in the water the ph goes up.

In order for ph to go down you would have to replenish hydrogen ions so that the balance was in favour of hydrogen. I can't remember what the other molecule is but it's the one that makes up water when added to hydrogen. If there is an equal number if hydrogen ions to this other molecule the ph is neutral 7.0.

It is the carbonate that is important. Calcium will make the water harder.
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:18 AM   #162
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Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:20 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I have an idea about cycle stalls. We always ask people like, oh did your pH crash etc. But it's not the pH that gets "eaten" it's the alkalinity. It's the CARBONATE. In hard water this is usually CaCO3. With baking soda it's NaCO3. What if people's cycles tend to stall when their carbonates are 0 even if they haven't seen a pH crash? The pH goes down because the nitrifying bacteria produce acid. It's not because they eat the pH itself. They eat the kH. What if all of the kH is gone, so the pH hasn't crashed, but they are stalled.
I have never once asked someone to check their kH. Not once.

Am I... crazy? Am I right? is this a potential breakthrough?
We never advise adding baking soda if pH isn't a problem...
but what if they have ZERO KH LEFT

Erk, catching up.

I know it is less testing than before and I really like it, I was just thinking set and forget for 6 weeks. It's just me, I really hate trying to figure out the test colours. I think I like the kh test because it is so easy to tell results. I am keen on this.

I rarely test ph now, I do a lot of kh tests. I guess having no kh would not help the bb. Does ph drop below 7 or 6 when kh is 0?
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:21 AM   #164
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Erk, catching up.

I know it is less testing than before and I really like it, I was just thinking set and forget for 6 weeks. It's just me, I really hate trying to figure out the test colours. I think I like the kh test because it is so easy to tell results. I am keen on this.

I rarely test ph now, I do a lot of kh tests. I guess having no kh would not help the bb. Does ph drop below 7 or 6 when kh is 0?
No, pH will go up if you add kH, but it doesn't directly dictate the pH. Like my tap water is about 7.2 even with no kH.
We're solving the set and forget don't you worry
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:53 AM   #165
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OK I'm giving myself the nobel fish prize for this kH thing and going to bed. the newbies don't have kH tests, if they stall we just have them dose baking soda to add bicarbonate aka alkalinity aka food.
All this time I was thinking the bacteria eat pH. It's always that confusing stuff around pH/gH/kH which I understand so much better now. It's the kH that is important for the cycle!~!
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:06 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.

lol omg this is what I've been trying to say!
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:16 AM   #167
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From post number 25 I started to think about this and post 30 I mentioned that we would have to account for the acid produced as well as alkalinity used.

You can still have the Nobel prize but you could just give a shout out to me when your receiving the award
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Old 04-02-2014, 08:44 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.

Where did the 10mg/l come from here? I though 1ppm was equal to 1mg/l so that would 7.14mg/l?
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Old 04-02-2014, 08:45 AM   #169
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Unless your using the 10:1 ratio which you obviously are. Sorry.
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:09 AM   #170
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Heck, I'm struggling with helping with grade 6 maths lol. Trying not to use the calculator....
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