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Old 04-03-2014, 04:02 PM   #211
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10 ppm carbonate to 1ppm ammonia

Here's my math:

Here is the formula to determine ppm:


From: Lesson 8: The Chemistry of Solutions

So what I want to know is, what g/L for 1ppm. So our variable in the equation is "mass of solute (g)". So I first rewrite the equation to put all instances of g on one side.

g = variable to solve for
mass of solvent = 1000 (water)
ppm = 1

This gives us 1 = (g/(1000+g)) * (1,000,000/1)
1 = (g/(1000+g)) * 1,000,000
1/1,000,000 = g/(1000+g)
.000001 = g/(1000+g)
.001 + .000001g = g
.001 = g - .000001g
.001 = .999999g

g/L=.001 to make 1 ppm
or, 1.000001 mg/L to make 1 ppm

Here it is rewritten as a single equation, using water weight as a constant for solvent, and adding in ppm as a changeable variable:
g=((1ppm/1000000)*1000)/(1-(1ppm/1000000))
Here, ppm is a variable that one can enter to solve for any ppm that I specify.
Or of course you can just multiply your g value from the simplified version by your ppm.

This is not the full answer of course. If you enter in 10ppm (for the 10:1 ratio), you'll be given 10mg/L. So we're not done because not all of that 10mg is carbonate.

So my molecule is NaHCO3, but I only care about the atom CO3.
Molar mass of CO3 is 60.01
Molar mass of the entire molecule is 84.0075

So CO3 is 60.01/84.0075 = .71434098 of the molecule

So to determine how much total solvent to put in, we solve for:

mg total solvent = mg of atom to make x ppm [from our previous equation] / (molar mass of desired atom / molar mass of molecule)

So in the specific case of our molecule with carbonate, this equation is:

mg = 1.0000001/(60.01/84.0075)
mg = 14



I'm not that good at showing my work with math problems so if this requires clarification I will try to look over it and expand it
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Old 04-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
10 ppm carbonate to 1ppm ammonia

Here's my math:

Here is the formula to determine ppm:


From: Lesson 8: The Chemistry of Solutions

So what I want to know is, what g/L for 1ppm. So our variable in the equation is "mass of solute (g)". So I first rewrite the equation to put all instances of g on one side.

g = variable to solve for
mass of solvent = 1000 (water)
ppm = 1

This gives us 1 = (g/(1000+g)) * (1,000,000/1)
1 = (g/(1000+g)) * 1,000,000
1/1,000,000 = g/(1000+g)
.000001 = g/(1000+g)
.001 + .000001g = g
.001 = g - .000001g
.001 = .999999g

g/L=.001 to make 1 ppm
or, 1.000001 mg/L to make 1 ppm

Here it is rewritten as a single equation, using water weight as a constant for solvent, and adding in ppm as a changeable variable:
g=((1ppm/1000000)*1000)/(1-(1ppm/1000000))
Here, ppm is a variable that one can enter to solve for any ppm that I specify.
Or of course you can just multiply your g value from the simplified version by your ppm.

This is not the full answer of course. If you enter in 10ppm (for the 10:1 ratio), you'll be given 10mg/L. So we're not done because not all of that 10mg is carbonate.

So my molecule is NaHCO3, but I only care about the atom CO3.
Molar mass of CO3 is 60.01
Molar mass of the entire molecule is 84.0075

So CO3 is 60.01/84.0075 = .71434098 of the molecule

So to determine how much total solvent to put in, we solve for:

mg total solvent = mg of atom to make x ppm [from our previous equation] / (molar mass of desired atom / molar mass of molecule)

So in the specific case of our molecule with carbonate, this equation is:

mg = 1.0000001/(60.01/84.0075)
mg = 14



I'm not that good at showing my work with math problems so if this requires clarification I will try to look over it and expand it

No I do get it now, it's just that I wasn't sure what your target was so it becomes a bit of a haze and I couldn't find these formulas anywhere.

Thanks
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:21 PM   #213
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So do you guys ever sleep?? LOL

This is great stuff. Just catching up as I have been crazy busy at work. I had no idea the bacteria need the carbonate in order to flourish. I thought the only role the carbonate played was keeping pH stable. Learning a ton here

Thren - I may have capacity to mimic your experiment in a couple of weeks
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:16 AM   #214
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Well I am a vampire and Caliban is over in the UK :P

OK I have been doing my tests but not reporting because I am just getting frustrated/confused/aggravated. I can't seem to get readings for anything with the API test that mathematically match the ammonia that was added.

On nitrites, on the 3rd they were a tad darker than the day before. OK... that's ok I guess, maybe the ammonia just hadn't finished pooping it all out (by the way is nitrite actually their waste product in that sense?)
On the 4th, about the same.

Nitrates seem to continue to rise, but ....?? nitrites aren't going down. The test results just aren't giving me enough.

I even have a different nitrite/nitrate test, the Seachem one. I took a really hilarious picture with my phone showing a 100% and 50% reduction of each test type and all the colors are THE SAME. I can't get JACK for info. AND that test goes all the way to 25 nitrites so I SHOULD be able to get some real info from it.
I've even tried a 1/20th reduction on the API test for nitrites and while it IS lighter than an off the chart color, I'm noticing more and more that the purple spectrum is just not very well differentiated.

Also I forgot to wash vials and the crazy red nitrates and purple nitrites stained more of them... I need to buy more vials!! Argh!

I didn't even record my nitrites or nitrates for the past two test days because I'm not even sure what to say about them. I'm mad at my own spreadsheet.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:27 AM   #215
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Nitrites must have stalled the cycle :p

I just don't know why trites arn't going down when ammonia is and trates are going up.

What do you expect trites to be at this stage?
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:39 AM   #216
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Ammonia has been gone for days, I have not added more.

I'm not sure what I expect them to be at. The 4th is day 18. I'm certainly not worried about the cycle yet. Right now I am just worried and annoyed at my inability to read the API test when it gets to a certain point.

I used to be able to keep the vials day to day to really get a comparison, but the levels are so high it just doesn't work.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:05 AM   #217
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If Trates are going up that must mean some of the Trites must have been processed, no? Unfortunately I just think the API test is going to be unreliable at these parameter levels. If there is anything that YouTube video by Dr. Hovanec showed its that at significantly elevated levels hobbyist grade kits are unreliable.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:34 PM   #218
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Experiment: Extreme cycle

Hi thren,

In a couple of weeks I may be able to replicate this experiment.
I could do it at work, I work in a waste water treatment plant and have access to hach testing equipment so I may be able to do it with more accurate figures. Rather than depending on the api test. Let me know if your interested and what type of filters etc you used, just so we are comparing like with like
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:32 PM   #219
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I am not sure anyone has ever gotten this excited about the words "waste water treatment plant" as I just did

The specific filter isn't even important so long as it is sufficient for the water it is filtering by normal aquaria standards, aka rated at least twice the size of the "tank" or bucket, bin whatever. But for reference I'm using a canister and I'd say an HOB would be the closest to replicate that (Rather than an air driven sponge)

Our most interesting differences will be that of our source water. I feel like there's a trend towards slower cycling with harder water, which doesn't even make sense to me.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:51 AM   #220
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Normally when I tell people where I work I get an eeeeww or 'does it not stink'. Great to get a positive reaction

I'm in an area with super hard water and a high ph. But I have a ro unit at work. I could use the water from this which is soft and has a ph of about 6.5. And we could add baking soda to replicate. Only problem is I wouldn't be able start it until mid may, I'm getting married in 3 weeks and it will be mid May before were back from honeymoon.
Still it gives us plenty of time to come up with a plan of action.
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