Experiment: Extreme cycle

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I used a part as 1. So 1ppm ammonia uses 7.14ppm alkalinity. You can then convert this to dkh. I have done it. You might have to scroll up. I can't do it at the mo as I'm at work.

From what I understand. It is the carbonates like you say that increase alkalinity.

Apparently, carbonates are very unstable and need to find something to bind to for stability. The choose the hydrogen ion. When they bind they reduce or change the structure of hydrogen ions so because there is now less hydrogen ions in the water the ph goes up.

In order for ph to go down you would have to replenish hydrogen ions so that the balance was in favour of hydrogen. I can't remember what the other molecule is but it's the one that makes up water when added to hydrogen. If there is an equal number if hydrogen ions to this other molecule the ph is neutral 7.0.

It is the carbonate that is important. Calcium will make the water harder.
 
Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.
 
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threnjen said:
I have an idea about cycle stalls. We always ask people like, oh did your pH crash etc. But it's not the pH that gets "eaten" it's the alkalinity. It's the CARBONATE. In hard water this is usually CaCO3. With baking soda it's NaCO3. What if people's cycles tend to stall when their carbonates are 0 even if they haven't seen a pH crash? The pH goes down because the nitrifying bacteria produce acid. It's not because they eat the pH itself. They eat the kH. What if all of the kH is gone, so the pH hasn't crashed, but they are stalled.
I have never once asked someone to check their kH. Not once.

Am I... crazy? Am I right? is this a potential breakthrough?
We never advise adding baking soda if pH isn't a problem...
but what if they have ZERO KH LEFT
Click to expand...


Erk, catching up.

I know it is less testing than before and I really like it, I was just thinking set and forget for 6 weeks. It's just me, I really hate trying to figure out the test colours. I think I like the kh test because it is so easy to tell results. I am keen on this.

I rarely test ph now, I do a lot of kh tests. I guess having no kh would not help the bb. Does ph drop below 7 or 6 when kh is 0?
 
Delapool said:
Erk, catching up.

I know it is less testing than before and I really like it, I was just thinking set and forget for 6 weeks. It's just me, I really hate trying to figure out the test colours. I think I like the kh test because it is so easy to tell results. I am keen on this.

I rarely test ph now, I do a lot of kh tests. I guess having no kh would not help the bb. Does ph drop below 7 or 6 when kh is 0?
Click to expand...

No, pH will go up if you add kH, but it doesn't directly dictate the pH. Like my tap water is about 7.2 even with no kH.
We're solving the set and forget don't you worry (y)
 
OK I'm giving myself the nobel fish prize for this kH thing and going to bed. the newbies don't have kH tests, if they stall we just have them dose baking soda to add bicarbonate aka alkalinity aka food.
All this time I was thinking the bacteria eat pH. It's always that confusing stuff around pH/gH/kH which I understand so much better now. It's the kH that is important for the cycle!~!
 
threnjen said:
Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.
Click to expand...


lol omg this is what I've been trying to say!
 
From post number 25 I started to think about this and post 30 I mentioned that we would have to account for the acid produced as well as alkalinity used.

You can still have the Nobel prize but you could just give a shout out to me when your receiving the award :(
 
threnjen said:
Adding baking soda to provide correct kH for entire cycle:

To create 7.14ppm
10mg/L OR 37.8 mg/G

PER L/G PER ppm ammonia

Samples:

16ppm ammonia in a 20g aquarium. 37.8 mg * 16 * 20 = 12096 mg or 12.1 g
8ppm ammonia in a 70L. 10 * 8 * 70 = 5600 mg or 5.6 g


HOWEVER

This does not account for the pH drops due to acidity created by the bacteria. For example, this cycle I am working on stalled because of a pH crash, but I had not finished using up all of the kH. So it didn't run out of kH - it first produced so much acidity that it overwhelmed the buffer and dropped below the level of nitrification. (confirm?)

Papers on nitrification simply advise a general 10:1 ratio. So instead of doing 7.14ppm, we just add 10ppm per 1ppm ammonia. This amount is

14 mg/L per 1ppm ammonia, OR 53 mg/g per 1ppm ammonia.

So in my test cycle for example, I should have added, to start, 53 * 16 * 20 = 16960 mg = 17g of baking soda. 1 tsp is about 5 grams. You can see back on page 1 that I added only 1/4 tsp baking soda to the initial setup. I did not add more until the pH crash.

SOLVED! We can do the set it and forget it. OMG! I have to find something else to cycle!!!

I will start something new on Saturday after my big project is due.
Click to expand...


Where did the 10mg/l come from here? I though 1ppm was equal to 1mg/l so that would 7.14mg/l?
 
threnjen said:
"Baking soda rests around 8.4 on the pH scale, slightly above the neutral mark of 7. The effect of baking soda will be influenced by the current pH of your water--you will not be able to raise the pH above 8.4
Click to expand...


This is true. Calcium bicarbonate with hold much higher than this. Above 9 I believe so it's not a good idea to use this in large amounts.

Apparently, you can't overdose sodium bicarbonate.

What happens if you combine calcium carbonates from the tap with baking soda?
 
I just read this

So, when you mix calcium carbonate and sodium bicarb, you get: Carbon dioxide gas, calcium carbonate solid, water and sodium and chloride ions.

I'm just thinking what happens if hard tap water calcium carbonates are mixed with the baking soda. Both try to raise. The ph to their desired level of stability so I'm thinking there must be a reaction of some sort. Or am I way off here or getting to deep.
 
Caliban07 said:
From post number 25 I started to think about this and post 30 I mentioned that we would have to account for the acid produced as well as alkalinity used.

You can still have the Nobel prize but you could just give a shout out to me when your receiving the award :(
Click to expand...
I was talking about the Nobel prize for the kH stall thing re:newbies, not stealing your thunder on how much baking soda to add in for set it and forget it :p

No one else thought the kH thing was mega significant??! I'm talking about when we diagnose the newbies.
"check your pH, did it crash... ok add some fish flakes.... do a water change... UGH WHY IS IT STALLED" I have never once thought about the kH. kH isn't pH so who CARES what their pH (as long as it's not TOO low). kH!!!! I have never seen anyone mention or account for this when diagnosing cycle stalls. No one even has this test. We just need to tell the newbies to toss in baking soda when they are stalled to replenish their kH. The bacteria probably just ate all the alkalinity.

As for the amounts I offered being higher than the ppm (add 14mg for 10ppm etc) - it is more because not all of baking soda is carbonate. And we're concerned only with the carbonate portion when dosing. But it sounds like my math might be wrong? Since just above you said some site told you 18.x grams whereas my math would give 17.x
 
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Caliban07 said:
I just read this

So, when you mix calcium carbonate and sodium bicarb, you get: Carbon dioxide gas, calcium carbonate solid, water and sodium and chloride ions.

I'm just thinking what happens if hard tap water calcium carbonates are mixed with the baking soda. Both try to raise. The ph to their desired level of stability so I'm thinking there must be a reaction of some sort. Or am I way off here or getting to deep.
Click to expand...

Nooooo clue on that one lol
Do you think it will go over 8.4?
 
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Caliban if after my clarification you're still saying that you tried to tell me all this already, you can have the nobel prize, don't worry ;)
 
threnjen said:
I was talking about the Nobel prize for the kH stall thing re:newbies, not stealing your thunder on how much baking soda to add in for set it and forget it :p

No one else thought the kH thing was mega significant??! I'm talking about when we diagnose the newbies.
"check your pH, did it crash... ok add some fish flakes.... do a water change... UGH WHY IS IT STALLED" I have never once thought about the kH. kH isn't pH so who CARES what their pH (as long as it's not TOO low). kH!!!! I have never seen anyone mention or account for this when diagnosing cycle stalls. No one even has this test. We just need to tell the newbies to toss in baking soda when they are stalled to replenish their kH. The bacteria probably just ate all the alkalinity.

As for the amounts I offered being higher than the ppm (add 14mg for 10ppm etc) - it is more because not all of baking soda is carbonate. And we're concerned only with the carbonate portion when dosing. But it sounds like my math might be wrong? Since just above you said some site told you 18.x grams whereas my math would give 17.x
Click to expand...


Yes ph is the direct stall of the cycle. It is hugely important. In a way kh doesn't stall the cycle, ph does. However in order to ensure this doesn't happen, kh needs to be maintained obviously. I mean if a cycle is stalled you ask what the ph is and if it's too low you ask them to add baking soda. There's nothing new there?

Sorry I know I'm coming off as a smart arse here but it's always been understood that alkalinity is eaten in my mind anyway. Of course it's only come to light in the past month or so but that's why I insisted on a set and forget earlier on but you said ph would go to high which would be correct if we used calcium bicarb.

According to a site I looked at earlier ph will not go above 8.4 when adding baking soda because it is selfish and that is the optimum ph level to keep it stable.

I don't know if you have read this but here is a good site that explains how a buffer works in more detail

http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/understanding_buffering.html

As for the math. I'd rather go with yours.
 
I've been trying to find out how much acid is produced during 1ppm to nitrate conversion but I think we are delving on to the realms of the unexplored.

But then again, you have better search engine skillz ;)
 
Except that you can have pH higher than "stall level" and be out of kH, can't you?
You can have pH 7.2 water that has 0 kH, or is that incorrect?

Hypothesized example: Let's say you start at pH 8 but only 3 kH. cycling for a while, yada yada yada yada, pH has dropped to 7 but the kH was all eaten. Water is now 0kH even though pH is still . Cycle stalls. Is this not a possiblity? I realize I might still be failing to grasp how this works.
Is a pH crash to 6.0 GUARANTEED if there is 0 kH and the bacteria are still trying to work, no matter what the pH was before?
 
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