Fahrenheit 9/11

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I'm being misunderstood...

I am not saying that everybody who gets married has something to do with a religion.
I am saying that the concept of marriage is based in religion.

Atari/ferret, please let me know if this clears up my preceeding posts.
 
I disagree. See my previous post, I tacked it on while you were replying I think. Originally, marriage was pretty much about ownership. This was back when government and religion were practically the same thing, so I suppose you could say that both sides are right. It was both a religious and legal concept, but the meaning was far different.
 
I never thought of it that way.. so are we saying that marriage is older than religion?
 
ferret said:
It was both a religious and legal concept... (bold added for emphasis)
That's what I've been saying. As far as the time frame you're speaking of, I would say it was more "political maneuvering" rather than "a legal concept". Generally speaking, one family marries into another for some sort of gain; usually in station or money. The people getting married were usually innocent bystanders (so to speak).

The concept of marriage is born from religion. And it's the people that practice religion (in whatever form it may take) that are going to be the ones that will argue what can and cannot happen with regards to it.

It is something akin to me coming over to your place and telling you how to run your household.

I'm not saying one side is right and one is wrong. But I do think that same sex marriage is an oxymoron. They need to come up with an alternative. I think I heard "civil union" mentioned earlier.
 
ferret said:
I'd just like to point out everyone keeps saying "the church" and "the religion" ... In the United States, having multiple wives is illegal, but there are some religions that hold this belief. So should this practice be legal or illegal? To some religious groups, its practically a command from God to take many wives and bear many children. (And no, I'm not refering only to the guys out in Utah)

This is irrelevant because it IS illegal. Also these groups are not trying to force this down our collective throats and change policy.
If a gay couple want to live together in a union, that is their own business. Just don't expect the rest of the country to change its laws and basic values to accommodate them.
There are some things that need to be at the core of a society, if you want that society to remain strong. If as a country, we are forced to change laws and core values every time a small group makes a lot of noise, chaos would eventually ensue.
 
So you're suggesting, if same-sex marriage is legalized, this somehow forces people to change their beliefs? Explain to me how this changes anything in your life, how it affects you in the least. And no, explaining to your children why two men are kissing isn't a good excuse: That happens whether or not same-sex marriage is allowed.

I don't care if its called marriage or called "civil union" .. The issue I have with is "marriage" having more rights than "civil union" ..

My personal opinion is that for matters of state and the goverment, ALL unions, including normal religious marriage, should legally be refered to as a "civil union" .. Then as far as the law is concerned, everyone is equal, and you can call it what you will as far as your own beliefs are concerned.
 
All that i was trying to say is tyhat same sex couples should be able to have the rights of a "normal" couple. This should not have to do with religion because this is the legal side of marraige that can and is separated from any form of religion. Just answer. me this, if a same sex couplke get rights regarding spousal benifits and custody of children, how will this efect you or anyone else, besides them? (Besides you thinking it is wrong and that they might go to the bad place :twisted: )
 
I'm with Quarryshark on this.. it's not as simple as just making a few legal changes that won't affect the rest of us. The implications on the fabric of society and future generations are the big picture that needs to be looked at.
 
ferret said:
So you're suggesting, if same-sex marriage is legalized, this somehow forces people to change their beliefs? Explain to me how this changes anything in your life, how it affects you in the least. And no, explaining to your children why two men are kissing isn't a good excuse: That happens whether or not same-sex marriage is allowed.
quote]

I doesn't (couldn't) force me to change my beliefs, as a law it would force society to accept something that (imo and the opinion of many others) is simply wrong for mutliple reasons already stated.
How does it affect me? Not in a direct way, but (for the last time) I don't appreciate and will not accept it being shoved down my throat!! Not by this group or the media.
As for my children, I will teach them that this is not normal behavior, if that makes me a bigot in your eyes and less than 10% of the population, so be it. BTW ,what I expain to MY children is MY business.
I will not respond to any more of your posts in this thread. IMO with your off the wall questions and replies, you are trying to raise this debate to a level I will not go to. I don't wish to be banned.
 
ferret said:
My personal opinion is that for matters of state and the goverment, ALL unions, including normal religious marriage, should legally be refered to as a "civil union" .. Then as far as the law is concerned, everyone is equal, and you can call it what you will as far as your own beliefs are concerned.

OK, one more.
I married my wife....in church.
If they do this, I'm out of here to the Carribean (like I need an excuse).
If we become a country that caters this much to small groups of people, then there is no hope.
Refer back to a previous post about my other pet pieve, political correctness.
 
ha, I was checking up on this post and I think the last time i checked it was only on page 3 or 4... man has the subject matter strayed =o)

Carry on...
 
To me, equal rights means 50/50.. can you imagine a world where 50% of everything you can think of is geared towards homosexuality? Because that's where all this is eventually leading.. Thank goodness I won't be around to see that day.
 
Atari said:
To me, equal rights means 50/50.. can you imagine a world where 50% of everything you can think of is geared towards homosexuality? Because that's where all this is eventually leading.. Thank goodness I won't be around to see that day.

Amen A-man, excellent point.
 
quarryshark said:
I will not respond to any more of your posts in this thread. IMO with your off the wall questions and replies, you are trying to raise this debate to a level I will not go to. I don't wish to be banned.

I guess I simply don't understand this post, then. If you're not willing to debate the subject, why did you continue to post about it? I was directly refering to something you said, concerning the children thing. But as you wish. I don't know what "level" a debate can be raised to, unless you feel to prove your point you would have to resort to personal insults.. I don't believe I've done that, point it out to me if you feel otherwise.

Sorry if you're upset not everyone agrees with you?
 
quarryshark said:
OK, one more.
I married my wife....in church.
If they do this, I'm out of here to the Carribean (like I need an excuse).
If we become a country that caters this much to small groups of people, then there is no hope.
Refer back to a previous post about my other pet pieve, political correctness.

I married my wife.. Not in a church as location, but by my grandfather, a minister of over 30 years. This country was founded on the belief that all were created equal, and all deserve the same rights and representation. If we become a country where small groups of people have no recourse against the majority, ie, if we become a nation that oppresses those who are different from those in power, THEN there is no hope.
 
Now that everyone has had their say we can move on to the things that bring us to AA in the first place.
 
Now that everyone has had their say we can move on to the things that bring us to AA in the first place.

Nope, I'm getting mine now ;)

I am saying that the concept of marriage is based in religion.

As I remember....so is human sacrifice, your point is moot, it is no longer based in religion, please live in the here and now ;)

If a *EDIT* couple want to live together in a union, that is their own business. Just don't expect the rest of the country to change its laws and basic values to accommodate them.

There are certain protections by law that only married couples have, in several states, if you are not married or have a legal heir, if you die, your estate either goes to your parents, brothers and sisters or the state, despite your wishes. In a court of law, a husband or wife cannot be forced to testify against their spouse. I there is the issue of health insurance, sure both people can get individual health insurance, but at a severly higher cost than a "family" plan.

The implications on the fabric of society and future generations are the big picture that needs to be looked at.

So let's just make it illegal and lock them up, I mean hell, even without the marriage...they'll keep doing it. I don't think preventing them from marrying is going to prevent them from kissing in public. Homosexuality is older than the bible, it's always been there and will always be there, seems like a pretty freaking good definition of normal to me, like it or not, it's as normal as a heterosexual relationship.

To me, equal rights means 50/50.. can you imagine a world where 50% of everything you can think of is geared towards homosexuality? Because that's where all this is eventually leading.. Thank goodness I won't be around to see that day.

It is a fucking shame when a person is afforded less rights by society and by the law than a common criminal or even a murderer simply cause they are doing what comes natural. A homosexual can no more be heterosexual than I can be homosexual, it is not something many of us have a choice in.

This thread outlived it's usefulness before I started reading it.
 
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