Fahrenheit 9/11

[Atari]

.. and since I consider our media fairly accurate when it comes to foreign affairs,

Surely you just. That media is what tabloids are modeled after. Its the only one more biased that the American media. At Least Tony Blair had it right.
And yes I have read British newspapers...many times.

Sheesh, we don't just have tabloids.. there is such a thing as serious newspapers, and infact I was talking about BBC News anyway. I've seen news channels in the States and the difference between what they tell you and what we get told here is amazing.

The truth of the matter is, no one posting in this thread has any special insider information. All we have is our own political views and opinions, which may or may not be a result of who we choose to believe. Therefore no one can claim to be right or accuse someone else of being wrong. This is no different to a debate about religion when it comes down to it.

Let's face it, no one is gonna convince anyone to change their standpoint here. But how about we respect each others views? You wouldn't like it if someone used words like scumbag or ahole if this was about religion.

 

[fishfreek]

But how about we respect each others views?

Thats right. Respecting others views in a discussion is what will keep such discussions from degrading to a bunch of namecalling. So far this thread has been within the acceptable limits of this sites rules and regs. Lets keep it that way.

 

[frshwaterfinatc]

Therefore no one can claim to be right or accuse someone else of being wrong.

You can accuse someone of being wrong when there is blatant evidence that what they are saying is a lie... as in Moore's movie, the clip where he holds up the newspaper with the "front page headlines" that are really titles on page 10 of that newspaper. My entire problem with Farenheit 9/11 and the media that they try to deceive. Why do they act so desperate to put down any of the President's ideas, or the right's ideas, or even the recently outspoken Bill Cosby? Why speak of ONE block of protesters at the White House as if there are NO supporters, when the truth is their cameras ignore the TEN blocks of supporters? Why does CNN tell us the Iraqis hate us and want us out of their country, while on Fox News we see happy Iraqis wanting to touch American soldiers- and Iraqi children begging for more candy from soldiers? Is it not logical to see this an know that we freed a people from their murderous dictator? We are not trying to conquer and pillage as the media implies!
So often I hear liberals put down America. So often I hear how everything our government does is a huge mistake. Yet why do they still choose to live here?
If the UK is so much better, go there. If China is so much better, move there.
I'm so sick of the complaining. I think all of us are guilty of ungratefulness. We were not all born into some third world country where our brothers and sisters never made it to 14 because they wasted away from starvation. We're part of a country who can help countries like that!

 

[Atari]

Why does CNN tell us the Iraqis hate us and want us out of their country, while on Fox News we see happy Iraqis wanting to touch American soldiers- and Iraqi children begging for more candy from soldiers?

Because both are true.. I'm not gonna speculate which is the majority view in Iraq because it's impossible to know unless you are there to see for yourself. And even then, it probably depends who you ask.

That's my point, we can only go by what they decide to tell us. Who knows how complete or accurate any information is that we're given. It's really quite frustrating when it comes down to it. Like someone already mentioned, sometimes it's best to seek out news reports from other countries that have no reason for bias... if there really is such a thing.

 

[nyghtone]

I'd just like to second everything frshwaterfinatc just wrote!!!

 

[ClamKnuckle]

As far as what goes on in Iraq, you don't know just like I don't know just like probably more then 99% of the people members of this community don't know. There are probably places where the people are thrilled and places that they aren't. I don't think that anyone will argue (well now that I typed I figure someone will) that Iraq will be in the long run better off without Saddam in power. What my biggest gripe, as well as most peoples, is the lies that were told leading up to the war and the attention it has drawn away from the ones responsible for the attacks here. Not to mention the fact more Americans are dying everyday, more after mission accomplished then before. I really can't understand the "Moore lied it wasn't a head line it was on page 10" rationality in knocking someone but the whole he has WMD and we know where they are so lets go to war (and have over 900 Americans die and terrorism is up world wide) lie draws your support. I saw the movie but don't remember what part you are talking about with headlines and what not to be honest with you.


I think if your worried about media deceiving, turn off Fox News. As far left as people say CNN is Fox is MUCH more to the right

So often I hear liberals put down America. So often I hear how everything our government does is a huge mistake. Yet why do they still choose to live here?

First of all liberal is not a bad word. You are considered a liberal on issues more then likely just like most everyone else. For 8 years we heard nothing but people from the right putting down the government and it's policies? Should they have left? I spent 6 years of my life defending this country and people's rights to speak up about what they think is right or wrong or what ever, and I'll be damned if I don't speak my mind about what I feel. People that don't like things and speak up to change them for what they feel is better is the American way. The keep your mouth shut and follow the government obediently seems more suited for China.

 

[Atari]

Off topic but I just remembered reading somewhere that GW's IQ is 99.. anyone know if this is true? I've been trying to find the truth but don't trust the sources I've found so far.

 

[frshwaterfinatc]

Atari said

That's my point, we can only go by what they decide to tell us. Who knows how complete or accurate any information is that we're given. It's really quite frustrating when it comes down to it. Like someone already mentioned, sometimes it's best to seek out news reports from other countries that have no reason for bias... if there really is such a thing.

Good point. This is the very thing I was trying to say. I believe more of what Fox news reports because they just tell what's happening- it isn't some dreadfully dark and urgent secret. On CNN or ABC, I get the feeling (esp. from Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw) that all their reports carry a very negative undertone when they mention the president or the war. All I hear from them is bad news. On Fox, you hear some good news. And it's the only station I hear people complain about and criticize up and down. Yes, Bill O'Reilly is a pious jerk. But he does have some points that you would never hear debated on CNN. And I hear good discussion on Hannity and Colmes- Fox tends to give both sides of the story. Which is what I, as someone in the middle of the road, like.

 

[rubysoho]

Not to be off topic (still deals with F 9/11), but I thought everyone here might find this interesting. F 9/11 has now been show internationally, including in a large amount of middle eastern countries, where many people liked it, and have even been inspired by it, NOT for its controversy and Bush bashing, but for the simple fact that a documentary like that could be made. People are wanting that same freedom and are starting to see that they need to make changes in their oppressive governments. They admire the fact that America allows people to have a freedom of speech and they want it for themselves. How cool is that? No matter how bad you might think F 9/11 is, you gotta admit, that kind of impact is great for the progression of freedom and non-oppressive forms of govt. Maybe within 50 years women in those countries will start gaining more rights. Possibly even sooner since in some places they are finally allowed to receive an education (though I wonder how good this education is). Anyway, I thought that was a positive note that this topic needed cause some people sounded a little angry, of course I could have just mis-read.

 

[RocketSeason]

F 9/11 has now been show internationally, including in a large amount of middle eastern countries, where many people liked it, and have even been inspired by it, NOT for its controversy and Bush bashing, but for the simple fact that a documentary like that could be made. People are wanting that same freedom and are starting to see that they need to make changes in their oppressive governments.

Wow. so Micheal Moores Plan Backfired!

It's not a documentary. Its an opinion piece. He presents his opinion as if it were fact, And by mixing it in with acual factual information, he cleverly slips under the radar of the casual follower of politics. And as was most likely previously stated, Many of the claims he has made has been proven to be flat out lies and Moore knew they were lies when he was making it.

Let me ask a question. Why did he threaten lawsuit against anyone who would dare claim that he presented false information in his film? I guess that freedom of speech only applies to him?

When you think about it, It is kinda ironic that a man who comes out against people who have made a profit as a result of a war that he feels is unjust, made a HUGE profit (in the millions of dollars) because of that war.

You Go Micheal Moore! Win one for us little guys!

 

[quarryshark]

Wow. so Micheal Moores Plan Backfired!

It's not a documentary. Its an opinion piece. He presents his opinion as if it were fact, And by mixing it in with acual factual information, he cleverly slips under the radar of the casual follower of politics. And as was most likely previously stated, Many of the claims he has made has been proven to be flat out lies and Moore knew they were lies when he was making it.

Let me ask a question. Why did he threaten lawsuit against anyone who would dare claim that he presented false information in his film? I guess that freedom of speech only applies to him?

When you think about it, It is kinda ironic that a man who comes out against people who have made a profit as a result of a war that he feels is unjust, made a HUGE profit (in the millions of dollars) because of that war.

You Go Micheal Moore! Win one for us little guys!

LOL, outstanding! Watch, I'm sure that the Hollywood rat pack will see to it the academy recognizes him when the time comes. Not bad, mega millions and a trophy. 8O Oh ya and another chance to grandstand in front of his peers.

 

[Robert H]

Why is it that multiple independent sources checked the movie for facts and found them to be true and documented, yet people say its full of lies?

That is so naive. It has been absolutely documented that the movie is full of made up and exaggerated propaganda. The 9/11 commission report debunks the entire movie. You need to be better informed. Watch Fox news and Bill Oreilly if you want a fair and unbiased view of the facts.

There is a growing socialist and anti corporate america movement in this country that wants to radically change this country and does not care by what means. This is a open democracy where everyones voice may be heard, unfortunetly it does not matter how much truth it is based on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to be off topic (still deals with F 9/11), but I thought everyone here might find this interesting. F 9/11 has now been show internationally, including in a large amount of middle eastern countries, where many people liked it, and have even been inspired by it, NOT for its controversy and Bush bashing, but for the simple fact that a documentary like that could be made.

Actually it is not that simple. Hesbala, (however that is spelled) one of the biggest terrorist organization, has the film and very happily is showing it off. Castro ran it on national television in Cuba. That pretty much says it all right there. This anti american movie is being used by our enemies for their own propaganda. That is absolutely shamefull.

Just ask yourself, why would Moore give the movie to CASTRO??? Or to the largest mid east terrorist organization outside of Bin laden? What if this was World War 2 and Moore gave such a movie to the Germans, the biggest war criminals in history?

While I am at it, I will give you my opinion on Europe. The vast majority of Europe is socialist and ruled by socialists parties. They have fundamental differences in political views and social practices than a conservative party such as the American Repulicans and someone like Bush. Their views are far more liberal than at least half of the American Democrat party. It is no great surprise at all that much of the populus of Europe hates Bush. They are offended that Bush openly admits to be a religious person and can not accept the fact he can be a good and fair leader and still be religious, so they compare him to Bin Laden as a religious extremist. They are offended that we did not wait for the endorsement of France and Germany before taking action.

They did not like Reagan either. When Reagan demanded in a speech that the Berlin wall be torn down, the people of Europe called him a war monger. Sometimes our leaders need to take a tough stand, with or without the approval of our Europian allies. Liberal socialists can be as intolerant as any other idealog. No big surprise.

 

[Atari]

Watch Fox news and Bill Oreilly if you want a fair and unbiased view of the facts.

Hahahahahaha.. Thanks I needed a laugh.

 

[ferret]

I was gonna read and reply to this thread, but stopped on page two. I'd say things that would anger people, because I see a lot of people who are too wrapped up and closed minded, too busy trying to "protect" their "side", to realize that like all things, both sides are presenting a mixture of truth and lies.

Get over yourselves. Liberals aren't the enemy, and neither are the conservatives. This country was built on the prinicipal of compromise between these two opposing forces. To remove one or the other breaks the entire system. I fear the day when either so completely dominates the other side that they can do whatever they want.

 

[rubysoho]

wow, maybe it is because I read this after just waking up, but I think that the two responses to my post were... well I was a little take back by them. I wrote that because everyone here was becoming so negative. Honestly, there are ALL sorts of sources that say he is right or wrong, and everyone here is just bickering and making claims they believe to be true. I am all about having discussions, and I've participated in them before in The Lounge, but I just get a bad vibe from this one. No offense, I know yall are trying to say what you beleive in. However, you guys seem to forget some of the really good documentaries that M.M. has made in the past. M.M. was aware that a lot of what he put into his work was opinion, he has always admitted that, and the people who don't take the movie with a grain of salt, are the ones who get all fussy. I'm not going to argue truths or lies because I don't have the facts to back it up, and don't feel like rumaging through my packed boxes to find them. Anyway, I'm not sure where I was going with this anymore so I guess I'll go get ready for class (bleck!!). Oh, and don't think that our news sources are unbiased, fair, truthful, etc... because they are not. I'll come back with facts to prove that if you guys need it. The only station I would remotly trust is PBS because they have no ties to anyone. The only thing about other countries' papers that I like are that they give a different perspective.


**hehe, had to fix some typos

 

[cginflorida]

(BTW, Floridians- how many of you had the 'hanging chads' experience Around here, to this day, puns are made referring to the stupidity of FL's residents. But I'd like to know if this was an isolated case of just those cities- or if many of you saw this problem and were able to deal with it accordingly.)

I try to stay away from political discussions because while I definitely have my opinions, I'm not good at debating. I've read through this thread, and of course, I couldn't let this comment go unanswered.

I believe the 'hanging chads' were mostly in south FL where the majority of people have moved here from somewhere else, maybe even from your state, frshwaterfinatc. It doesn't matter if they're native Floridians or transplants. To imply that the people of a certain geographical area are all stupid is in itself stupid and bigoted. We've all heard the jokes and we've made them ourselves because we can laugh at ourselves. Not long after the 2000 election, bumper stickers were seen in south Florida that said "Don't blame me, I voted for Gore and Buchanan." Ha, now that's funny.

The fact is, there was a big problem with the voting process, not with the voters. I just pray that we won't have the same mess this year.

 

[RocketSeason]

Actually it is not that simple. Hesbala, (however that is spelled) one of the biggest terrorist organization, has the film and very happily is showing it off. Castro ran it on national television in Cuba. That pretty much says it all right there. This anti american movie is being used by our enemies for their own propaganda. That is absolutely shamefull.

Here is an interesting little bit of information related to that:

In North Vietnam there is a museum devoted to the Hero's who defeated the Americans in the Vietnam War. In that museum there is a picture hanging on a wall, and the man standing in that picture is John Kerry.

We did not loose one major battle in the whole of the Vietnam War. The war was lost at home. and if anyone could be called the "General" of the war on the homefront, It would be John Kerry.

We need to examine what it is that people Like Micheal Moore and John Kerry want. Why do they lie and twist stories around to make americans look bad? What is in it for them? How is it helping America? How is it helping our enemies?

What I want to know is how can Kerry be so proud of medals he recieved for doing what he later felt was morally reprehensible? You can't have it both ways John.

 

[quarryshark]

In North Vietnam there is a museum devoted to the Hero's who defeated the Americans in the Vietnam War. In that museum there is a picture hanging on a wall, and the man standing in that picture is John Kerry.

We did not loose one major battle in the whole of the Vietnam War. The war was lost at home. and if anyone could be called the "General" of the war on the homefront, It would be John Kerry.

We need to examine what it is that people Like Micheal Moore and John Kerry want. Why do they lie and twist stories around to make americans look bad? What is in it for them? How is it helping America? How is it helping our enemies?

What I want to know is how can Kerry be so proud of medals he recieved for doing what he later felt was morally reprehensible? You can't have it both ways John.

Also, while is Kerry screaming at Bush to condemn the commercial made by the Swift Boat Veterans. Moveon.org and the mediafund.org (properly named and funded I would bet) go on the merry way with the assault of nasty, factless commercials. You don't hear Bush or the mainstream media crying about those.

Wait until the focus turns to Kerry's post war activity. How will he defend those actions that border on treason?

I would love to know the true agenda or Moore, Kerry, Moveon.org, etc, other than the lust for power. The media is their machine and they are taking full advantage of it's use. Good for America? Sorry, don't see how.

 

[ferret]

Let's seperate something right quick: "Good for America" is not the same thing as "Good for right wing conservatives"

The last statistics I could found placed the nation split into three groups. Those that identify with the democratic party, those that identify with the republican party, and those that went either way. It was a nearly 33% split between the three groups.

The fact is, as much as you might not like to think about it, you are NOT the majority. You are merely a facet of America, and America is more than a Republican agenda, its more than a Democrat agenda, its more than any one person or group.

That's all I got to say.

 

[ambulocetus]

I don't want to wade in on any particular side but i would like to say a couple things:
1. I lived in england and in the US, there is non-one I know who can show good evidence that the US media can even come close to the impartial nature of the media in Britain.
2. I think the opinion of a man who goes and defends a country, and from his experiences in battle decides that it is/was not the right thing to do. And who them works against escalating it further, is worth infinitely more than someone who flew a desk for the war, was not endangered and from the safety of the sidelines shouts out his opinion.
3. I hope and assume we are all mature enough to keep the debate civilised, and not affect other areas of the forum! (where we are fishy friends! )