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Old 08-24-2004, 01:46 PM   #41
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It is not about Vietnam. It is about the beliefs of those people who want to lead this country for the next 4 years. Where a person was stationed during Vietnam or what they did during the war has nothing to do with what is going on now.

We are at war. We have been at war since we were attacked on September 11th 2001. We need to choose a president who can and will respond to a threat to our country when such a threat is presented.

Kerry is a Pacifist. Thats pretty safe to say. (although his feelings on the matter may change depending on next weeks polls.) And thats fine. As long as your not the Commander and Chief. We need a president who won't hesitate to respond to a threat to our national Security.
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Old 08-24-2004, 02:02 PM   #42
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That is true, but we need to be aware that the world is a much bigger place, and we cannot have a leader who acts like he has to personally police it all.
You are right, there are times when action is needed to be taken. A pacifist will look to find ways to avoid the conflict for as long as possible, a non-pacifist will shoot first and ask questions later. While there are merits to both sides the vast majority of the time a little patience and self control are needed.
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We need a president who won't hesitate to respond to a threat to our national Security.
I know earlier posts have mentioned WMD etc, so i think i will pass on adding my two cents to this one!! lol
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Old 08-24-2004, 02:39 PM   #43
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I believe the 'hanging chads' were mostly in south FL where the majority of people have moved here from somewhere else, maybe even from your state, frshwaterfinatc
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Whoa. Snap back- I was in no way trying to say that those of you who live in Florida are stupid. I have a lot of family in Florida. I just wanted to know what went on from YOUR perspective, since you were so much closer.
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Old 08-24-2004, 02:50 PM   #44
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Let's get back to the main topic here... I'lm going to take some points from the Misleads book that I find to be most out there.

The Wimpy Coalition Partners
In Farenheit 9/11 Moore theatrically announces "The coalition of the willing...roll call: The Republic of Palau, The Republic of Costa Rica, The TRepublic of Iceland." He goes on to say, "Of course, none of these countries has an army, or for that matter... weapons." Moore concludes his list with: "Romania, the Kingdom of Morocco, The Netherlands, Afghanistan."

from Misleads: "This one is too easy. Have the millions worldwide who cheered this movie forgotten that Moore failed to mention England? Spain? Italy? Poland? Each of these countries has real troops, real training, and real weapons. "
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:21 PM   #45
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Here is a link that will explain Mr Moore's, lets say creative editings. Also reveals the many relevant facts that he omitted. Lets just say.... the rest of the story.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:26 PM   #46
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Our Low Class Military
Moore wonders aloud where the military will find the new recruits. He even answers his own question by saying "in places that have been destroyed by the economy. Places where the only job available is to join the army. Places like my hometown of Flint, Michigan." Moore then focuses on a rundown portion of Flint, Michigan with a proclaimed unemployment rate of 17%.

Moore claims that out of the 535 members of the Congress, only one had a son in Iraq. Moore also does a cinematic ambush of various members of Congress by asking if they'll send their children to Iraq. Moore ends the segment with, "Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq."

From Misleads: "Despite the picture that Moore paints, the US military recruits across the entire spectrum of the American people. The military does NOT consist only of soldiers who join out of economice desperation. (As those of you with sons and daughters know!) But we need not tell you that- just look around your community at the men and women who are serving in the Armed Forces. They look a lot like America- proud, hardworking, patriotic, and primarily middle class.

Moore's claim of Flint, Michigan, as his home town is a bit of a stretch. Truth is, Moore grew up in Davison- a middle class, white suburb of Flint. Flint, on the other hand, is working class with the majority of the population being Black and Latino. Moore would like you to believe he's a blue color average Joe. The truth is he lives in a 2 million dollar apartement in Manhattan. He send his kids to private school, and stood shoulder to shoulder with the working class factory workers in Flint for exactly ONE DAY where he found it so appalling he quit.

On the issue of members of Congress and their children, Moore uses the most juvenile techniques of interviewing and editing to make his point. For example, he shows Delaware Rep. Mike Castle seeming to avoid Moore. The clip implies that Castle would not be willing to send his own children. Just one fact Moore decided not to report: Castle has no children! Another slick editing scene involves Rep . Mark Kennedy who appears confused and defensive about Moore's question, when in fact Kennedy went on to point out that he had a nephew heading to Afghanistan.

Moore also omits the fact that the son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after Sept. 11 and enlisted in the Marines where he was deployed in Iraq. Or that Sgt Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. Or that Senator Joe Biden's son is on active duty in the Marines. In all, SEVEN members of Congress have children in the military.
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:36 PM   #47
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Moore portrays two kinds of soldiers in Fahrenheit 9/11. The first are ruthless warrior soldiers who seem to enjoy the killing- they are pumped up by loud music and adrenaline. The second type of soldiers are those who are angry they're in Iraq. Moore quotes one saying, " If Donald Rumsfield were here, I'd ask him for his resignation".
Moore goes on to show footage of a funeral of US Air Force Major Gregory Stone. In a poignant moment he shows Stone's fiancee, Tammy Elsinger, kissing her hand and touching it to his coffin.

From Misleads: "The American military is the best-trained, best eqipped force ever on the planet. Our forces are also ENTIRELY made up of volunteers. While Moore tries to paint a picture of a disillusioned, disgruntled army, he does dramatic disservice to the hundreds of thousands of proud soldiers who are directly responsible for the new freedoms of the Iraqi people. He also insults the families and friends of active duty members of our Armed Forces, along with every retired service man and woman.

Major Stone was killed when a grenade was thrown into his tent by Sgt Hasan Akbar, who is on trial for murder. The family of Major Stone is livid about Moore's use of the footage in his film. They were not contacted nor permission asked in any way by Moore. The family states that Major Stone would have found the film to be 'putrid'."
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:42 PM   #48
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Moore accuses President Bush of spending nearly 42% of his time on vacation during his first eight months in office.

From Misleads: "Moore verifies his statements by showing examples of Bush at Camp David. He fails to point out however that the person next to Bush in that scene is none other than British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Not exactly a 'vacation'.

Similarly, Moore fails to identify that in his calculations of vacation time, he includes weekends as "vacation" (which accounts for nearly 29% of the 42% total.) Further, nearly all of Bush's "vacations" were "working vacations"- a fact that Moore conveniently ignores. What Moore really is counting is the number of days away from the White House. Somehow, traveling to parts of the country and giving speeches are considered "vacation" to Moore. It's ludicris."
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:45 PM   #49
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Hey, thanks frshwaterfinatc, I have learned something from your recent posts, I appriciate that!!!
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:49 PM   #50
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The August 6 Security Briefing

Moore wonders what President Bush was thinking as he sat in the classroom on Sept. 11, 2001, stating that "perhaps [President Bush] should've read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6th, 2001 which says Osama Bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes. "

From Misleads: "In fact, no has asserted that President Bush did not read the August 6, 2001, memo. Furthermore, according to the 9/11 Commission, the content of the memo was extremely vague and contained no actionable intelligence data. This matters not to Moore. It's more important to blame Bush for 9/11, at least indirectly. You can read for yourself the memo (President Daily Briefing) on 261 of the 9/11 Commission report. We have also posted the text of the briefing on our website. Go to http://grassfire.org/moremisleads.asp. "
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