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Old 08-24-2004, 03:49 PM   #51
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You're welcome, Nyghtone! thanks! I'm just telling it like it is.
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:54 PM   #52
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Moore develops the idea on an inappropriately close relationship between the Bush family and Saudi Arabia's ambassador, Prince bandar.

From Misleads: "Moore fails to point out that Bandar has been a Washington power broker for decades and in fact was a close ally to the Clinton Administration. Clinton once received $750,000 for giving a speech in Saudi Arabia and the Saudis have generously donated far in excess of $1 million to the Clinton library."
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:14 PM   #53
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Here's one I hear a LOT of- Bush is only interested in the oil in the Middle East...

Because of the Bush family background in oil and the Saudi's involvement in oil, Moore construes a long-standing, illicit, close relationship between the Bush family and the Saudis. Two companies in particular are used by Moore to paint the evil oil connection: Harken Energy and The Carlyle Group.
Moore states that when George W. was involved with Harken Energy he "beat the rap" after being investigated by the SEC. Specifically, Moore states that Bush received a memo while a director at Harken that warned against selling stock. One week later Bush sold nearly $150,000 worth of stock.
Moore would have you believe that the Carlyle Group, a huge investment firm, has close ties to the Saudis and close ties to the Bush family. Moore claims the Saudis have given the Bush family more than $1.4 BILLION. Moreover, Moore alleges that it was through a series of questionable transactions and influences that the Carlyle Group made a considerable amount of money- in one instance $237 million in one day. Furthermore, Moore alleges that the Bin Ladens were heavily invested in the Carlyle Group.

From Misleads: "Moore fails to explain that the SEC concluded that there was no illicit trading at Harken on the part of Bush. Those same attorneys who issued the "no sell" warning subsequently OK'd Bush to make the sale of his stock.

Moore also fails to mention the bi-partisan roster of partners of the Carlyle Group, including Bill Clinton's former SEC chairman, Arthur Levit, and billionaire financier, George Soros, who has single-handedly pledged $15 million to defeat George Bush in 2004. Senior advisors aslo include Thomas "Mack" McLarty, Bill Clinton's former White House Chief of Staff. Moore didn't mention that the anti-Bush billionaire George Soros has invested in the Carlyle group because it would surely punch holes in Moore's simplistic coonect-the-dots theory.

Moore again plays fast and loose with timelines and facts to derive the $1.4 billion given to the Bush family by the Saudis. Nearly 90% of that figure, $1.18 billion, comes from one source: contracts in the early to mid- 1990's that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a US defense contractor, BDM, for training the country's military and National Guard.

What's the signifigance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group whose advisory board included the president's father, George H.W. Bush. The problem with Moore's implication is that former President Bush didn't join the Carlyle advisory board until April 1998- five months AFTER Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm.

Let's address the $237 million profit in one day. In October 2001, the Carlyle Group took public a complany called United Defense and made $237 million the day the company went public.

Carlyle still owned 47% of the shares a year later when the Bush Administration under Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld cancelled of of the United Defense's larger projects- the Crusade missile program worth $11 billion.

Does that sound like a money motivated decision in favor of the Bush family and Carlyle? Once again, the facts don't seem to matter to Moore."
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:18 PM   #54
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I have plenty of knowledge about the presidency, and if anything is alarming it's the fact that these "claims" have credibility behind them and the "liberal media" doesn't do there job and expose what goes in with in our government, with our tax money and to our citizens!
'

Does anyone see any credibility NOW? Need I continue?
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:36 PM   #55
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What proves your information is any more truthful? Its all propaganda in the end. You're not going to convince me that one person is wrong by quoting yet another. Both MM and this site are after the agenda of their own side. I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.

Because we all know, America isn't about the freedom to express your opinion, or practice the religion of your choice, or believe what you choose to believe. Those who do not support the current president, or god forbid, even dislike him, or his actions, are anti-Americans bent on our destruction. [/sarcasm]

I'm tired of the general right-wing response being that if you're against them (Ie, Bush, the War in Iraq, current foreign policy), you're against America.
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:51 PM   #56
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Well said ferret!

Quote:
I'm tired of the general right-wing response being that if you're against them (Ie, Bush, the War in Iraq, current foreign policy), you're against America.
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:52 PM   #57
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So now that you've seen some of the issues Michael Moore twisted that happened more recently, let's look back at what he has to say about President Bush's election back in 2000.

"Fox News Election 2000 Hocus-Pocus"
Less than 2 minutes into the movie Moore unabashedly wanders off the journalistic reservation with bizarre theories about Election 2000. Moore states with an ominous tone: "It was Election Night 2000 and everything was going as planned."

Over the next three minutes Moore strings together a half-dozen unrelated facts, reconstructs timelines, ignores fundamental facts, sprinkles in a blatant misstatement and, viola! We have the ingredients for an Election Night conspiracy!
Moore also strings together quick clips by Tom Brokaw (NBC News), Dan Rather (CBS News), Peter Jennings (ABC News), and CNN all declaring Al Gore the winner. He continues with, "Then, something called the Fox News Channel came out in favor of the other guy. All of the sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true!'

Next we see Tom Brokaw saying, 'All of us networks made a mistake a projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake.' Moore created the impression that the networks recanted as soon as they heard Fox call Florida for Bush."

Misleads: "Let's stop right there. FRIST, it was CBS at 10:00pm that night that first withdrew from the assertion that Al Gore would win Florida. In fact, the networks that called Florida for Gore did so early- even before the polls closed in the panhandle. Moore fails to tell you that even Fox called FL for Gore before the polls closed.

At 10:00 pm that night it was CBS (Not Fox) that retracted its call for Gore to win. In fact Fox did not give the win to Bush until 2:00 am. Within 20 minutes, all major networks had also given Bush the victory. Why the close timing? Because the major networks all used the same source for their data- "Voter News Service"- not because of some hocus-pocus by Fox news."

That's Michael Moore's technique. String together snippets of truth, change the timing sequence, ignore any facts that don't support your agenda, add a dose of ominous music and a commentary to go with it.

Next, "The Vote-Countin' Woman"

Fox News is just the beginning of the supposed Election Night shenanigans. Moore implies many more reasons why Florida and the election went wrongly to Bush. (Moore's misleads are in uppercase, followed by the facts):

MAKE SURE THE CHAIRMAN OF YOUR CAMPAIGN IS ALSO THE VOTE COUNTIN' WOMAN...

Katherine Harris was the Secretary of State in FL. Her job was to certify the vote counts. At no time did Katherine Harris count the votes. Nor was she the Bush Campaign Chairman- she was the Bush Campaign Co-Chair for FL.

AND THAT HER STATE HAS HIRED A COMPANY THAT IS GOING TO KNOCK VOTERS OFF THE ROLLS WHO ARE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR YOU. YOU CAN USUALLY TELL THEM BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

Moore refers to a company called "Data Base Technologies" that was hired to remove conviced felons from voter rolls. Their process has serious flaws. As a result, at least 20 counties ignored their purged lists and allowed thousands of convicted felons to vote who shouldn't have been able to. Statistically, the large majority of felons voted Democrat, so in fact, this error helped Gore- not Bush.
Furthermore, it is a blatant lie to imply that race was involved in the process!

MOORE IMPLIES THAT NUMEROUS STUDIES SHOWED RECOUNTS WOULD HAVE GIVEN THE ELECTION TO GORE. HE SHOWS A CNN INTERVIEW WITH JEFFREY TOOBIN WHO STATES THAT GORE WOULD WIN IN ANY SCENERIO.

In fact, a six-month study by the Washington Post, CNN, and the New York Times (hardly conservative news oragnizations) determined that in all scenerios pursued by Al Gore, Bush would've won had the Supreme Court not stepped in.

That President Bush somehow "stole" the election is practically an Article of Faith for liberals in the 21st Century. Moore begins here becasue every other supposedly deceptive deed by President Bush has it's roots in some "Election Night slight-of-hand". But Moore fails to make a case that stands up to the FACTS. It just isn't true. In fact, it could be argued that Al Gore made ever effort to turn the election. Gore only gave up the recount when it was clear he wasn't going to win. It's a bitter pill that liberals simply refuse to swallow: they will not admit that Bush won the 2000 Election, and this fuels everything they are doing in this election cycle."

INAUGURATION DAY HATRED

Moore states Inauguration Day brought an unprecedented protest of the new President- his limo was pelted with eggs. It may seem like a minor point to place in a documentary, but it serves to further confirm that President Bush "stole the Election" and people knew it.

Misleads: "A single errant protester threw one egg at the limo. CNN reported that President Nixon had faced similar protests in both '69 and '73. Moore points out the number of protesters, but fails to mention they were confined to a single block and were vastly outnumbered by supporters."

BUSH'S FAILED LEGISLATIVE AGENDA

Moore states, "For the next eight monts, it didn't get any better for George W. Bush. He couldn't get his judges appointed, he had trouble getting his legislation passed, and he lost Republican control of the Senate." Again, all this is to confirm that Bush is what some liberals call the "Commander in Thief" for stealing the election.

Misleads: "President Bush's agenda was not stymied. In the first 8 months, four judges were confirmed according to the Dept of Justice. More importantly, during his first 8 months, Bush got major legislation passed including two of the most important items of his Administration: one of the largest tax cuts in history and the "No Child Left Behind" legislation. "
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:59 PM   #58
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Ferret:

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What proves your information is any more truthful?
What proves it? Have you really read what I've posted? If you cannot recognize the Commission Report's text on page 261 regarding Moore's statement "says that Osama Bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes" when in fact the document itself does NOT say that, I don't know what to tell you.

More clearly- Michael Moore says the document says one thing. But if you read the document he's talking about yourself, it says something totally different.

Since we know the document is real, and we know it does not say what Moore says it does, then Moore is lying.

Also, if you were paying attention to the times and sequences in which many of these instances occurred you know that they don't make sense- they are not chronological. Therefore you know truth is being twisted by this man.

Open your eyes, and if you're offended- then go away.
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Old 08-24-2004, 05:02 PM   #59
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Ferret:
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I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.
No, the reason you won't is because what he has said is NOT true.


I hear this so often. "I can't tell you why it's true because you'll cal me a liberal. You'll say I'm anti- American." Stand up for yourself. Let's hear what's true, if you believe so strongly that it is.
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Old 08-24-2004, 05:17 PM   #60
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[quote="ferret"] I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.
quote]
Using your logic, how do we know these "details" you would post are true? What would be the source of information? The media? Firsthand knowledge? 911 commission? Mr Moore's imagination?
Its not about whether there were some truths in this film, it is how he distorts the information and molds it into his own reality (or fantasyland).
Actually I don't agree with everthing (most but not all) the the president is doing, in fact I think he can do more to fight terrorism, starting by closing our borders. But at least he is taking the fight to our enemy, our enemy now know its in a fight, not just the empty threats a previous administration issued when we were attacked. At least we now have a man in office who backs up his words with actions. A terrorist's worst nightmare.
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