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Old 03-12-2014, 08:29 PM   #131
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Great idea, this is what I found in a water report and I would assume we are on the low side.

"Chloride:--- In surface water, the concentration of chloride is typically less than 100 mg/L while groundwater can have higher concentrations, particularly if there is salt water intrusion. In Australian drinking water supplies chloride levels range up to 350 mg/L depending on local source characteristics."


------ Edit
Just saw this earlier up so maybe nitrite to 2ppm roughly will be ok if I have ~100mg/l of chlorides in tap?

------------------
Table salt:
3.55g or 1/2 level tsp added 1142ppm to 1 gallon water.
So appx 1/2tsp (3550mg) per 10 gallons of aquarium water, which is appx 1/2 tsp per 40 liters (37.85 liters). So weight per 10L using more accurate conversion is 938mg. That would be really small on a spoon though. I think the smallest you could present it as a measurement is 1/4tsp per 20L.
This yields appx 100ppm, protection for 1ppm nitrite. (will actually yield about 114ppm, so maybe just stress that the spoon should not be mounded but level or even a bit under)
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:27 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?
Calcium chloride makes it less toxic. Sodium chloride makes it less toxic. It is the chloride ions that are important.

Caliban got the chloride number from his water quality report, not a test. So the water quality report specifically registers the levels of Cl in the water. I don't think it's important so much if it's paired with Na or Ca, but I agree it is probably Ca.

Yes, I agree it is toxic at very very low pH like under 5, but we don't operate in aquaria at pH that low, so for our application I believe we can consider that irrelevant.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:31 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Great idea, this is what I found in a water report and I would assume we are on the low side.

"Chloride:--- In surface water, the concentration of chloride is typically less than 100 mg/L while groundwater can have higher concentrations, particularly if there is salt water intrusion. In Australian drinking water supplies chloride levels range up to 350 mg/L depending on local source characteristics."


------ Edit
Just saw this earlier up so maybe nitrite to 2ppm roughly will be ok if I have ~100mg/l of chlorides in tap?

------------------
Table salt:
3.55g or 1/2 level tsp added 1142ppm to 1 gallon water.
So appx 1/2tsp (3550mg) per 10 gallons of aquarium water, which is appx 1/2 tsp per 40 liters (37.85 liters). So weight per 10L using more accurate conversion is 938mg. That would be really small on a spoon though. I think the smallest you could present it as a measurement is 1/4tsp per 20L.
This yields appx 100ppm, protection for 1ppm nitrite. (will actually yield about 114ppm, so maybe just stress that the spoon should not be mounded but level or even a bit under)
I need to look more into this math. Since sodium is actually NaCl, I need to look up the molar mass to determine how much of salt is actually sodium and how much is chloride. Since it's only the chloride ions that are important to the equation. I think there would have to be more ppm "salt" added to make sure we're hitting a certain ppm of chloride specifically. So I will math this out in more accuracy. I was not accounting for the sodium ion when I did this before.

Also the 100ppm Cl:1ppm nitrite was from one of the papers we linked up front, but they don't all agree. Not totally sure what number to swing for.

If your tap is 100ppm chloride wouldn't that make it protect 1ppm nitrite if we use that ratio?
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:33 AM   #134
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Cl makes up .61 of a molecule of NaCl. So as an approximate, basically double what I said before to make up the chloride ions. Does this make sense? (not certain I am correct)
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:53 AM   #135
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What is TDS? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Confirmation that a TDS meter does measure both Sodium and Chloride ions, so my reading was legitimate. The only thing that could have thrown it off was the very small amount of anti-caking agent but I am sure this is piddly %.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:26 AM   #136
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Ah, I see - makes sense. Yes, better maths would be great as well. I did it on the train this morning something like 'ok, I need people up the front, say 100, what the heck, jam in 200 and 1 down the back - wow, ok, wait, I've got that back to front, everyone swap over...'
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:31 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
Gh is your hardness/softness. Kh is your alkalinity (high Kh=high pH) that's overly simple but normally works out that way.





(My tap water TDS fluctuates around 280ppm @ pH 8, far from a blank canvas!)

Out of interest is it worth getting a TDS meter? They look cheap. Main one I need is kh due to my soft water, I usually don't bother with gh (test is old anyways). Tank is just a community tank, nothing special.
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:55 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?

It is from my united utilities in depth water report. It says chloride. Not sodium or calcium. Just chloride. 5.5mg/l
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:12 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Out of interest is it worth getting a TDS meter? They look cheap. Main one I need is kh due to my soft water, I usually don't bother with gh (test is old anyways). Tank is just a community tank, nothing special.
I thought it was cheap and I find it really useful. Fun fact - if you keep your TDS same between tanks, you can transfer fish without acclimating. I use the meter almost every day for this and that. It was only 20 USD (and I saw later that there is a $15 model).
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:34 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I need to look more into this math. Since sodium is actually NaCl, I need to look up the molar mass to determine how much of salt is actually sodium and how much is chloride. Since it's only the chloride ions that are important to the equation. I think there would have to be more ppm "salt" added to make sure we're hitting a certain ppm of chloride specifically. So I will math this out in more accuracy. I was not accounting for the sodium ion when I did this before.

Also the 100ppm Cl:1ppm nitrite was from one of the papers we linked up front, but they don't all agree. Not totally sure what number to swing for.

If your tap is 100ppm chloride wouldn't that make it protect 1ppm nitrite if we use that ratio?
Sodium is Na it can appear alone as, sodium (Na) alkaline metal.
Sodium chloride is Na-Cl. Sodium bicarbonate Na-HCO3.

Sodium Salts - Salts | Sigma-Aldrich

(Whole page of sodium salts)
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