Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Community Forum > Aquaria Off-Topic
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 03-09-2014, 05:14 PM   #21
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
The effect of pH variation, within the range 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, 8.5 and 9, on activated sludge denitrification of a synthetic wastewater

.......

(Cited from various references)

.....I'm along for the ride!
This was all about ammonia toxicity unless I misunderstand something. I'm not really sure what you and Caliban both are talking about I guess regarding this article. We're talking about preventing nitrite toxicity.
Salt doesn't raise your pH (NaCl) I don't think, does it? Should I check?

Edit: I now understand your point and purpose but believe I have addressed it, see my replies a few down.
__________________

__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 05:16 PM   #22
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Caliban07's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 5,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
This was all about ammonia toxicity unless I misunderstand something. I'm not really sure what you and Caliban both are talking about I guess regarding this article. We're talking about preventing nitrite toxicity.
Salt doesn't raise your pH (NaCl) I don't think, does it? Should I check?

Re-reading I'm not sure myself.
__________________

__________________
Caliban07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 05:16 PM   #23
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondatek View Post
Here is a link explaining nitrite toxicity in saltwater... or the lack of it . Surprisingly nitrite is not toxic in saltwater like many believe it to be.

Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Thanks,this was really interesting. and just more confirmation of the protective value of chlorides.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 05:17 PM   #24
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
Re-reading I'm not sure myself.
I think there is confusion about the source of the Chloride.

J Mcpeak mentions calcium chloride which increases the hardness and calcium content of the water, and probably raises pH. After all we know that adding crushed coral, Equilibrium, etc raises the pH as it increases the gH/kH.
Running from that, he pointed out that a high pH increases NH3 levels which can be harmful for the fish in the cycle.

I'm proposing sodium chloride (table salt) which I don't believe raises pH and therefore is not making ammonia levels more dangerous. However I can't be certain it doesn't raise pH so I suppose I should check.

Aquarium salt is sodium chloride just like table salt; so is Kosher salt. Calcium chloride is something entirely different, so its effects on pH are not really relevant to the discussion. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate and not "salt" the way we think of it. Aquarium salts are not magnesium or calcium based.

I hope this helped clear things up, JMcpeak
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 05:30 PM   #25
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Haaaa I have something funny -
I missed last night on my TDS meter that it was flashing
"x 10"!!!! when I got the 200ish TDS reading (it only shows 3 digits and apparently that's how it makes it higher to read up to 9999)
So that salt last night actually made the water 2000 TDS.
Meaning the rate would be 1/2tsp per 10 gallons per 1ppm nitrite. It's quite low.



So - just now. I filled a 1 gallon jug with warm water. 17 TDS. I added 1 tablespoon of sodium chloride NaCl. TDS now 5500.
Initial pH around 7.2, new pH around 7.4
So it did go up a little - but this was the amount of salt to use in 60 GALLONS of water, and I put it in 1 gallon.

In conclusion: sodium chloride pH raising is negligible, making it the best protective chloride to promote nitrite protection.
Also, for general use, I am NOT a proponent of salt. But it takes 3tbsp for an entire 60 gallons (per 1ppm nitrite). This is really a pretty darn low amount of salt. I see people put in a LOT more as a "preventative" measure (although they are using aquarium salt which is larger chunks)

I also ran a check that I was reading the TDS meter properly. I added more salt to the jug until I read 946 x10, then I added more salt and it would no longer give a reading. This TDS meter goes up to 9999 so that was what I expected.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 06:13 PM   #26
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Just as a note the 1/2 tsp/10 gallons was using table salt, which is very fine grained. I would need to find the proper calculation using aquarium and/or kosher salt since it is chunky. As I understand it we should not use even non-iodized table salt because of the anti-caking agent (what is it? its its danger a myth?)
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 06:15 PM   #27
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Aha. The anti-caking agent in the table salt that I was using for my test is calcium silicate. That is the source of the pH rise.
Sodium chloride with no additives (aka Aquarium) should not raise the pH at all.

Edit: for the record, calcium silicate is a mixture of limestone and diatomaceous earth, neither of which are dangerous. So if people happen to have Morton brand non-iodized salt, this is a perfectly safe brand of table salt.

Edit again: Supposedly, even the whole non-iodized thing is a myth. Read this claim:
"freshwater aquarium salt- This is dehydrated sea water. Sea salt is not regulated and has more elements in it then tablesalt. Actually in most cases iodine and iodides are greater in sea salt then iodized tablesalt. Other elements are copper ( can be harmful to inverts and plants) and calcium carbonate (will raise pH and KH). Even though these things are present in sea salt they are also trace elements of freshwater. Matter of factly iodine is a freshwater trace element for freshwater fish. They need it for the same reasons humans do, preventing growths. The amount reccomended is actually more then is put in tablesalt when diluted in aquarium water."
The claim was not substantiated with evidence, but bears more research.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...4164624.html?7

Sodium Silicoaluminate is another possible caking agent, this is a form of zeolite (the stuff ammo chips are made of)

The bad caking agent is Yellow Prussiate of Soda which is a form of cyanide. Even this is debated as the amount is sooooo small.

Edit: apparently Kosher salt has an anti-caking agent as well.

However my conclusion is that any salt with a sodium or calcium caking agent is safe.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 06:32 PM   #28
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Salt would not play well with ammo chips. Zeolite is recharged through a salt solution.
Edit: the level of salinity in 100ppm would not be enough to make it release ammonia, so disregard this.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 06:35 PM   #29
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Caliban07's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 5,313
Good work threnjen. So tell me, just how much m/g did that half teaspoon if salt weigh?
__________________
Caliban07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 06:43 PM   #30
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
just found my super accurate scale. Few minutes and I will tell you the 100ppm weight and spoon amount for Kosher, table and aquarium salt.
__________________

__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
discus, nitrite, toxicity

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Toxicity of Cyanobacteria Madame_X Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 8 06-22-2017 12:26 PM
spray piant toxicity wierdkid General Hardware/Equipment Discussion 2 07-06-2006 05:15 PM
Fishy Cycle- Question regarding nitrite toxicity and PWC electrocutioner Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started 3 04-11-2005 12:22 AM
Toxicity of artificial seawater Peeley Saltwater Reef Aquaria 7 03-01-2004 03:22 PM
Zoo Toxicity ReefRaff Saltwater Reef Aquaria 9 01-11-2004 04:08 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.