Nitrite toxicity discussion

[threnjen]

I worry that you worry that we're looking for a cure instead of water changes, but I promise we're not. I'm a huge, huge fan of water changes and that's always what I tell the newbies to do. And I myself do 50% weekly ... And often look forward to water change day

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Delapool]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/ammo-lock-trouble-high-ammonia-readings-help-300434.html



Not sure if you were in this thread or not. Another catalogue, ammonia based this time.



I think that is a sweeping statement that cannot be applied realistically. In certain cases it won't cause any problems. Some situations though, you'll have a tank of dead fish. Dilution is the best thing (that's my opinion) it's the safest cure because one size fits all. Considering most ammonia issues are at start up time there are too many other factors that come into play that in my mind deem it unsafe as a general fixative. (Just add water, like how normal rivers are)

So you've never heard of adding salt for ammonia either?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I worry that you worry that we're looking for a cure instead of water changes, but I promise we're not. I'm a huge, huge fan of water changes and that's always what I tell the newbies to do. And I myself do 50% weekly ... And often look forward to water change day

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

No, don't worry. (really trust that response)

I realise now that you and caliban are on a new and as yet unexplored path. Water changes do more than control nitrogenous wastes. (I question so as to know) if I cause offence so be it. It is rarely my intention. Normally I jest where others get offended, it doesn't help the situation often but it makes me laugh. Sometimes people laugh too.
The simple water change is a topic unto itself! That would involve both of our recent topics ammonia and nitrates and then expand to include just as much info per subject, Kh/gh, pH, nitrate, salinity, turbidity, flow etc. etc.

I have explored some of your path already that's all. (Even now though I am learning, that's a good thing right)

Now we need to divide the term newbie into apprentice (6-18months) and raw recruit (0-6 months). In my mind 8months is a newbie, I have some fish friends who hold 30-40 years experience who consider my achievements so far as minor and I am still considered to them at least, to be a newbie! To be fair though, what they know would take those years to learn, so post apprentice you are simply, with (x) years experience in (x/y/z) applied fish keeping.

 

[Delapool]

Name of the koi book and authors? Perhaps it was posted but it seems I missed it being that it's now 3am and I really should be asleep. Is one of them by chance Dr. Erik Johnson, DVM?

Tsk, tsk - just added it below. I never know how much can be quoted from a book. Apologies.

The book is called 'Koi' - can't see that author but they do have several decades of experience listed. It's a UK book.

Under the effects of nitrite poisoning it says as well as brown blood, nitrite is a potent relaxant of smooth muscle and causes the blood vessels to expand, which can lead to heart failure. Chronic exposure can lead to secondary infections such as gill disease.

It looks a pretty decent book.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Yes and no. Salt is far too simple a term.

So you've never heard of adding salt for ammonia either?

If the salt used makes your water more basic how can it help ammonia? Ammonia becomes more toxic the more basic you get, I think the reverse is true of nitrite. (I say if salt used because 99% of salt addition is reef centred)
(More acidic water will be more deadly with nitrite accumulation, negligible and debate able, marine fish may deal with nitrite better that's all) could be chloride related.

I don't add salt of any form to any of my systems except for the puffer fish who needs light brackish water, he gets about 6 Grams per litre.
Hopefully one day I will be able to add salt to my reef tank if I ever get one running!

I have never used it. Has some uses in goldfish/koi land, see JLK or pip Walters. Good pH controller/ Kh buffer. (Applies to MgSo4)

The component used in ammo lock is essentially a salt. Sodium thiosulfate.

>

"A compound which results from the replacement of one or more hydrogen atoms of an acid by metal atoms or electropositive radicals. Salts are generally crystalline at ordinary temperatures, and form positive and negative ions on dissolution in water."
Science Dictionary: What is SALT? definition of SALT (Science Dictionary) <

Mgso4, Na-Cl and Na2S2O3 are all salts with completely different qualities when applied to an aqueous solution.

Edit-qualities should possibly read effects?

 

[Delapool]

No, don't worry. (really trust that response)



I realise now that you and caliban are on a new and as yet unexplored path. Water changes do more than control nitrogenous wastes. (I question so as to know) if I cause offence so be it. It is rarely my intention. Normally I jest where others get offended, it doesn't help the situation often but it makes me laugh. Sometimes people laugh too.

The simple water change is a topic unto itself! That would involve both of our recent topics ammonia and nitrates and then expand to include just as much info per subject, Kh/gh, pH, nitrate, salinity, turbidity, flow etc. etc.



I have explored some of your path already that's all. (Even now though I am learning, that's a good thing right)



Now we need to divide the term newbie into apprentice (6-18months) and raw recruit (0-6 months). In my mind 8months is a newbie, I have some fish friends who hold 30-40 years experience who consider my achievements so far as minor and I am still considered to them at least, to be a newbie! To be fair though, what they know would take those years to learn, so post apprentice you are simply, with (x) years experience in (x/y/z) applied fish keeping.

I don't think that will work. For example I've been using the tv/DVD longer than the kids but they know the remote better than I do..... Which is why I'm on this forum a lot...

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I don't think that will work. For example I've been using the tv/DVD longer than the kids but they know the remote better than I do..... Which is why I'm on this forum a lot...

It's ok, you can teach an old dog new tricks
(I'm with you on kids and computers) I think it's because today the computer is a tool to a child much like the slide rule was back in the day.
(The remote is a simple computer to a modern child, older folks think it more akin to nasa control.)

 

[Delapool]

Hope so I'm going to make a serious effort to grow plants this time. I was trying to explain why silk plants would be giving up (plus plant benefits and how my one plastic plant to hide airlines grows algae)... and just getting strange looks on cost.

 

[Caliban07]

No, don't worry. (really trust that response)



I realise now that you and caliban are on a new and as yet unexplored path. Water changes do more than control nitrogenous wastes. (I question so as to know) if I cause offence so be it. It is rarely my intention. Normally I jest where others get offended, it doesn't help the situation often but it makes me laugh. Sometimes people laugh too.

The simple water change is a topic unto itself! That would involve both of our recent topics ammonia and nitrates and then expand to include just as much info per subject, Kh/gh, pH, nitrate, salinity, turbidity, flow etc. etc.



I have explored some of your path already that's all. (Even now though I am learning, that's a good thing right)



Now we need to divide the term newbie into apprentice (6-18months) and raw recruit (0-6 months). In my mind 8months is a newbie, I have some fish friends who hold 30-40 years experience who consider my achievements so far as minor and I am still considered to them at least, to be a newbie! To be fair though, what they know would take those years to learn, so post apprentice you are simply, with (x) years experience in (x/y/z) applied fish keeping.

Experience and time go hand in hand. However, there are people on here who have and systems for years and feel silly because they don't know about the nitrogen cycle so it's not always about experience. Depends on how far you want to take it and in what area. If someone is experience in keeping fish x and fish x doesn't appeal to me then there experience and knowledge is irrelevant.

One thing I do know is that I have Time on my side and if I want to learn about something I will. What I have learned in 8 months could easily supersede many experienced aquarists on here. That said experience is vital. This is something I will build on and this is what I am trying to do. I consider myself a fairly quick learner. I picked up an electric guitar 2 years ago and and am now playing grade 4-5 classical guitar studies that would take most people many years with hours and hours a day. I nearly put in 5 hours a week. I'm not showing off here but I know I am capable of learning. Hopefully by the time I have retired and have the time and resources to build a fish room, I'll be in a much better place. Need to start somewhere though. Which is why I'm starting these threads. When this one is over (which looks like fairly soon as it's gone Waay off topic lately) I will start another one.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Experience and time go hand in hand. However, there are people on here who have and systems for years and feel silly because they don't know about the nitrogen cycle so it's not always about experience. Depends on how far you want to take it and in what area. If someone is experience in keeping fish x and fish x doesn't appeal to me then there experience and knowledge is irrelevant.

One thing I do know is that I have Time on my side and if I want to learn about something I will. What I have learned in 8 months could easily supersede many experienced aquarists on here. That said experience is vital. This is something I will build on and this is what I am trying to do. I consider myself a fairly quick learner. I picked up an electric guitar 2 years ago and and am now playing grade 4-5 classical guitar studies that would take most people many years with hours and hours a day. I nearly put in 5 hours a week. I'm not showing off here but I know I am capable of learning. Hopefully by the time I have retired and have the time and resources to build a fish room, I'll be in a much better place. Need to start somewhere though. Which is why I'm starting these threads. When this one is over (which looks like fairly soon as it's gone Waay off topic lately) I will start another one.

But if you study fish and know that x fish can live in the same conditions as fish (MY STOCK AT THIS POINT IN TIME), what chap A has to say all of a sudden becomes very relevant very quickly. Loads of different fish share similar qualities, illness and water parameters simply put.

(Like we both agree, learn what you are doing to the best of your ability) I think for some people a tank is a fad or impulse decision while out at the garden centre or to please the kids etc. I inherited a tank from a guy who didn't realise the workload who got it for his kids, he couldn't be bothered so I swapped him a bottle of vodka for a 36x15x15 with stand/hood and a Fluval 205 plus some equipment. Two happy people emerged from that deal. (Vodka was a good quality grey goose @ £36 bottle) now to me that's a right bargain, the filter alone at sale price was £60 and a fortnight old, the system itself was 2years old, with an in tank Fluval 2+

My brother is a guitarist, he's been playing now for 20 odd years, he is GOOD!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/8458185765/
My bros insane guitar collection. (The bass is missing, no studio can be seen neither can the xylophone? Or the keyboards)

Check this out! He is a proper musician, like I know fish and a few other things he knows music. (I do own a semi acoustic ibanez, black with white marketry, mother of pearl or abalone inserts, it's very nice)

 

[Delapool]

No, no - I'm still keen on understanding more. It seems like it should be a problem yet isn't (or is very rare - you would think with all the fish in cycling that something would pop up more often).

 

[Caliban07]

No, no - I'm still keen on understanding more. It seems like it should be a problem yet isn't (or is very rare - you would think with all the fish in cycling that something would pop up more often).

I felt like me and threnjen were on to something but I feel we are being steered off course. I find it strange that no one else has had an input yet.

 

[Caliban07]

But if you study fish and know that x fish can live in the same conditions as fish (MY STOCK AT THIS POINT IN TIME), what chap A has to say all of a sudden becomes very relevant very quickly. Loads of different fish share similar qualities, illness and water parameters simply put.



(Like we both agree, learn what you are doing to the best of your ability) I think for some people a tank is a fad or impulse decision while out at the garden centre or to please the kids etc. I inherited a tank from a guy who didn't realise the workload who got it for his kids, he couldn't be bothered so I swapped him a bottle of vodka for a 36x15x15 with stand/hood and a Fluval 205 plus some equipment. Two happy people emerged from that deal. (Vodka was a good quality grey goose @ £36 bottle) now to me that's a right bargain, the filter alone at sale price was £60 and a fortnight old, the system itself was 2years old, with an in tank Fluval 2+



My brother is a guitarist, he's been playing now for 20 odd years, he is GOOD!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/8458185765/

My bros insane guitar collection. (The bass is missing, no studio can be seen neither can the xylophone? Or the keyboards)



Check this out! He is a proper musician, like I know fish and a few other things he knows music. (I do own a semi acoustic ibanez, black with white marketry, mother of pearl or abalone inserts, it's very nice)

Good stuff! I have a tenth of your brothers experience! one thing I do know is that classical guitar is a whole new ball game. The introduction of the little finger wreaks havoc amongst even veteran electric players.

 

[Delapool]

I wonder if rapid swimming / flashing may be possible at low nitrite levels, then lethargy as brown blood, then death?

http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Nitrite

'As with ammonia, signs of possible nitrite problems may appear in the fish population: panic, rapid swimming, rapid breathing, gill damage, colors fading. More advanced signs include diseased or dying fish and invertebrates, cloudy water, and bad odors emanating from the tank.'

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Love guitars, off topic but briefly. . .

Good stuff! I have a tenth of your brothers experience! one thing I do know is that classical guitar is a whole new ball game. The introduction of the little finger wreaks havoc amongst even veteran electric players.

He will do two handed tapping while looking you in the eye, flight of the wounded bumblebee any good to you? At correct bpm, (it uses delay in the Extreme version but one pick out of place and it all falls apart)

He writes properly structured classical pieces? Rock and metal, ska. Experimental stuff that has no genre.

(He's played your ball game) (he will teach you music) I think he has four or five students at this time.

I will say though, John Williams is one of my favourite guitar players, you should check out Al de meola and paco de Luca. Steve vai and joe satriani. (That's probably a handful of the worlds best right there)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I feel we are being steered off course.

In what way?

 

[threnjen]

'As with ammonia, signs of possible nitrite problems may appear in the fish population: panic, rapid swimming, rapid breathing, gill damage, colors fading. More advanced signs include diseased or dying fish and invertebrates, cloudy water, and bad odors emanating from the tank.'

Despite being a detailed list it feels weirdly non-specific. I have no idea if that makes sense.


From what I have read before, the primary physical result of nitrite poisoning would be lack of oxygen in the blood. I would think that at low levels this is causing oxygen deprivation to the body's organs and placing some strain on them. As the methoglobawhatever goes up, I imagine the organs would be experiencing severe deprivation. Like... if your brain doesn't get any flood flow and oxygen, you get brain damage. I imagine that by the time we see fish gasping at the surface, they are probably already suffering physiologically.
The question is, I guess, is there a full recovery to the body's organs after temporary minor oxygen deprivation?
Maybe to answer this question, we need to look beyond fish to generally understand the effects of oxygen deprivation.

I wonder if this is at all similar to, for example, people climbing mountains. You go up too fast, the altitude becomes a problem. Acclimation is the key word there. You stay at base camps and wait for your body to adjust to the change.

Not that I am suggesting nitrite acclimation - i am suggesting it is a reversible damage.

More research to do!

Caliban we're still on track

 

[threnjen]

It seems like nitrite basically causes fish Hypoxia, would you guys agree or disagree?

Hypoxia (medical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Effects of high altitude on humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Caliban07]

Yes I would agree with this. Back on track

 

[Delapool]

Yes, seems to make sense. That's a good analogy.

I'll keep looking around on signs of it. Seems conflicting.