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Old 03-10-2014, 07:10 AM   #71
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I'm fairly sure it's the same chemical found in amquel and ammo-lock.

Ammo lock trouble. High ammonia readings. help?!

(I thought that was your thread above?) turns out I'm wrong! Again!


Water changes will solve everything associated with the nitrogenous cycle.
This is a question that now I feel I must ask (don't get mad)

Why waste so much energy looking for an alternate method which let's be honest, is not clear cut? (Many variables for both, species and water chemistry)
(Don't get mad, just my mind working that's all)

If a better understanding is all you want fair enough. Even when things head south, a quick load of fresh water will buy you the time to at least analyse your complete system, count stock, check your sums (math for the USA)

(MUST BE DEDICATED) no other attitude will do!

(I stocked up the old fashioned way, one or two fish and religious testing and changes with a notebook)
(that was the method, I never even heard of fish less cycling until about maybe 5 years ago)
it isn't easy but it is possible IF you test regular (am:pm) normally a change of water here is required. Then do another dose of clean water for good measure just before you go to bed. You can use your notes to determine the amount of water to change your levels. Once you gain confidence, cut back on tests to daily, maintain water regime until levels optimise? (Balance out, get good)

Use those hardy species like danio, they can happily tolerate the levels and thrive, if the maintenance is kept up. Mine started a couple of systems and apart from the one I killed (syphon horror story) they lived for a few years, close enough to the expected lifespan that I would consider them retired.

(By levels I mean low levels, enough to start the system up, not off the charts)

Edit- for prime, among other things added to combat nitrite nitrate, I assume the ammonia binding chemical would be the same. I think amquel is ammo lock re boxed? At least on paper they are essentially the same. Could be wrong.
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:51 AM   #72
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In my line of work I am required to ensure that medical equipment such as anaesthetic machines, patient ventilators, defibrillators are all fully functional and repaired when called upon.

There are procedures and guidelines in place in order to help us do this. We could be handed a manual or worksheet that have all the steps necessary to do this. We could just button press and make sure that we get a big green tick for each test section. But that is not enough. We have to know how a machine works and why it is used. We have to understand the electronics, pneumatics, mechanics and hydraulics behind how these machines work. You have to have a level of clinical understanding in order to make sure you can troubleshoot incorrect use of a particular machine at clinical staff level.

It's in my nature to delve deeper in to things and understand why and how things work. 'Change the water' to me is like looking for a pass on a test. Yes we know it works but that is not enough.

Nature has provided a perfectly good natural preventative to nitrite poisoning. I just think it deserves closer study.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:39 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
In my line of work I am required to ensure that medical equipment such as anaesthetic machines, patient ventilators, defibrillators are all fully functional and repaired when called upon.

There are procedures and guidelines in place in order to help us do this. We could be handed a manual or worksheet that have all the steps necessary to do this. We could just button press and make sure that we get a big green tick for each test section. But that is not enough. We have to know how a machine works and why it is used. We have to understand the electronics, pneumatics, mechanics and hydraulics behind how these machines work. You have to have a level of clinical understanding in order to make sure you can troubleshoot incorrect use of a particular machine at clinical staff level.

It's in my nature to delve deeper in to things and understand why and how things work. 'Change the water' to me is like looking for a pass on a test. Yes we know it works but that is not enough.

Nature has provided a perfectly good natural preventative to nitrite poisoning. I just think it deserves closer study.
Ok, that's the good answer. (Elaborate and detailed) (often I'm attacked for being excessive with the details!)
(I got physically attacked once for merely explaining myself and I got into Mod grief here for the same reason, but I'm not allowed to explain why to you as that is contravention of company policy)

I am not alone, (currently cancelling my funny farm expedition)

(Broadly speaking)
I'm not sure if natures preventative measures are able to cope with those levels often found in a closed aquatic environment which are rarely encountered naturally and if they are, the species concerned have adapted to suit. Lungfish for example and even swimming elsewhere etc.
(fish jumped out of my tank type situation)

A lot of study has been done so far, I think though, you are (or(are you?)) looking for a generally applied fixative for X nitrite.
(Based on, how much is lethal?)
(This may be wrong of me to think this, once again, in order to protect the danglies, don't get mad!)

I'm not sure you will find a conclusive answer, though I do think you will always keep fish!

(It's simple enough to say ammonia and nitrite are to be considered deadly at any dose, maintain nitrate at or below 30ppm, that's generally acceptable for most things aquatic) I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.

Which leads me to, what exactly are you looking for?

Once you understand the effects on fish, the duties of the fish keeper are clear.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:57 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
Ok, that's the good answer. (Elaborate and detailed) (often I'm attacked for being excessive with the details!)

(I got physically attacked once for merely explaining myself and I got into Mod grief here for the same reason, but I'm not allowed to explain why to you as that is contravention of company policy)



I am not alone, (currently cancelling my funny farm expedition)



(Broadly speaking)

I'm not sure if natures preventative measures are able to cope with those levels often found in a closed aquatic environment which are rarely encountered naturally and if they are, the species concerned have adapted to suit. Lungfish for example and even swimming elsewhere etc.

(fish jumped out of my tank type situation)



A lot of study has been done so far, I think though, you are (or(are you?)) looking for a generally applied fixative for X nitrite.

(Based on, how much is lethal?)

(This may be wrong of me to think this, once again, in order to protect the danglies, don't get mad!)



I'm not sure you will find a conclusive answer, though I do think you will always keep fish!



(It's simple enough to say ammonia and nitrite are to be considered deadly at any dose, maintain nitrate at or below 30ppm, that's generally acceptable for most things aquatic) I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.



Which leads me to, what exactly are you looking for?



Once you understand the effects on fish, the duties of the fish keeper are clear.

No you are correct. A tank doesn't replicate hardly anything of the wild. No matter how much you tinker with the water to get it 'right' it will never be like that of the wild. Nitrite can and will kill that's obvious. I'm not suggesting that if we find anything I'm going to go round telling everyone any amount of nitrite is fine.

How many times have you seen posts on here about nitrite toxicity causing deaths? Brown blood disease? Not once have I seen it. That could be because ammonia will have done the damage first? But I do see a lot of people complaining about high nitrites during fish in cycles and I've not seen one that says there fish are showing signs of stress. There has to be a reason for this. It maybe because they have been using prime, have a good level of O2 saturation, the particular fish they have are less susceptible due to size or species.

How do fish survive the nitrite stage of a fish in cycle? There must be a build up? Before nitrite starts to be consumed? Maybe is tap water chloride or dechlorinator properties. I want to look in to the toxicity of nitrite in its entirety simply because I am interested and above all...it's fun. Maybe we will seek advice from a qualified scientist on what their thoughts are.

Threnjen has the same outlook and I'm sure she's going to have something to say but with all do respect I'm not sure you are following along with the spirit of the thread. It's about finding out about the toxicity of nitrite in fish in our aquariums. Why we want to know is irrelevant at this stage. Every thing we learn opens up more questions and quite frankly I find it quite fascinating. I'm not sure you have read all links yet either.?
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:03 AM   #75
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Nitrite toxicity discussion

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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I've not read about salt reducing ammonia toxicity.
Does prime have sodium chloride?
I'm not ignoring other responses but I'm laying in bed now on my phoneand Idon't know how to quote and I hate using it to type a lot

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No - it seemed pretty odd to me, I've never heard that before. I'm starting to think the library books are hopeless and I will just look at the pictures instead.

The flashing from nitrite I have never read anywhere else but I guess if there is any sort of chemical irritation it could make sense. Will search a bit more, it would be handy to know for mystery flashing.

The yo yo loach I had flashing stopped about the same time I took all the filter wool wrapped around plants out. I'm not sure that is a positive link though but perhaps confirms flashing may not be just parasite related.

Edit - actually I don't know if the flashing makes sense. Cramps, muscle spasms and lethargy were mentioned flicking through. I've seen posts of fish twitching but I believe that was thought to be parasites. Might be off on a tangent on chronic symptoms anyways.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.
I think you misunderstand - for us, this IS fun It's not a chore or I wouldn't work on it.

Just visualize me prancing around my house in my lab coat and goggles and test tubes with my microscope in hand... I genuinely enjoy these scientific explorations (and I can always count on Caliban to enjoy them with me lol). (I do own a lab coat. At home. But that's a coincidence and not for this)

To answer your "why?" I think Caliban said it well. Actually I use, as my motivator, "the newbies". If you looked at my posts you'll see 90% of my posts are trying to help out the newbs who are freaking out about one thing or the other with their cycling. I like to come up with clear explanatopms that will help them relax through the process.

I had a great post for a newbie recently about ammonia that I've seen a few people link back to, and that only happened because of Caliban and my extensive research on ammonia toxicity. I was proud of it and I know that it was helpful to the new people.
I want to help people understand their water chemistry in an easy way so it's not so overwhelming to them.

I also just like to know the "why" behind things. It's not really enough for me to just know the what. How come? Don't know, just am this way

I'm not sure what you meant about that Ammo-lock thread being "our thread", Caliban and I (and you of course) were definitely all over that thread if that's what you meant.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:02 PM   #77
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No - it seemed pretty odd to me, I've never heard that before. I'm starting to think the library books are hopeless and I will just look at the pictures instead.

The flashing from nitrite I have never read anywhere else but I guess if there is any sort of chemical irritation it could make sense. Will search a bit more, it would be handy to know for mystery flashing.

The yo yo loach I had flashing stopped about the same time I took all the filter wool wrapped around plants out. I'm not sure that is a positive link though but perhaps confirms flashing may not be just parasite related.

Edit - actually I don't know if the flashing makes sense. Cramps, muscle spasms and lethargy were mentioned flicking through. I've seen posts of fish twitching but I believe that was thought to be parasites. Might be off on a tangent on chronic symptoms anyways.
Well what year are they from?
So they say the fish flash from nitrite? I don't know why they would. Nitrite basically lowers the oxygen level in the fish's blood. I can't see why it would make them "itchy". When was the book written?
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:10 PM   #78
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I think you misunderstand - for us, this IS fun It's not a chore or I wouldn't work on it.

Just visualize me prancing around my house in my lab coat and goggles and test tubes with my microscope in hand... I genuinely enjoy these scientific explorations (and I can always count on Caliban to enjoy them with me lol). (I do own a lab coat. At home. But that's a coincidence and not for this)

To answer your "why?" I think Caliban said it well. Actually I use, as my motivator, "the newbies". If you looked at my posts you'll see 90% of my posts are trying to help out the newbs who are freaking out about one thing or the other with their cycling. I like to come up with clear explanatopms that will help them relax through the process.

I had a great post for a newbie recently about ammonia that I've seen a few people link back to, and that only happened because of Caliban and my extensive research on ammonia toxicity. I was proud of it and I know that it was helpful to the new people.
I want to help people understand their water chemistry in an easy way so it's not so overwhelming to them.

I also just like to know the "why" behind things. It's not really enough for me to just know the what. How come? Don't know, just am this way

I'm not sure what you meant about that Ammo-lock thread being "our thread", Caliban and I (and you of course) were definitely all over that thread if that's what you meant.

Did you mean nitrate? I'm sure you posted something about this earlier and quoted nitrate?
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:21 PM   #79
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Did you mean nitrate? I'm sure you posted something about this earlier and quoted nitrate?
Was that to Delapool?
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:33 PM   #80
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Was that to Delapool?

Yes sorry
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