Nitrite toxicity discussion

[J.Mcpeak]

Sounds good. But, most people don't have a scale that accurate, so we have to be able to disseminate in a more understandable form.

Do guys use stuff like tsp and Tbsp?? I don't actually know.
(why oh why doesn't the US convert to metric and stop being so dumb and annoying)

I have a set of 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2 spoon sizes, it's an important part of my kitchen, so yes, this guy does! I love cooking! Not sure they are accurate enough though, not like a proper scale set. I've a set of single point digital, which I use to weigh salt for my brackish set up. (Good enough for the job and way cheaper than .00 or the ridiculously priced .000 sets.)

You're the 2nd American I've met here who is seriously against imperial sizes.

We never fully converted! Building sizes are often imperial, wood stocks and bricks etc. newer materials such as gypsum boards (plaster board) are metric. Then we have engineers whitworth (not so common but still in use)
(If the spanner don't fit it's a whit!)
(antique cars have some other sizes, unique almost)

Now we have pints of milk with silly litre conversions on them? And wood sized in MM alongside your regular stock sizes, seriously it's mental!

 

[threnjen]

Oh my gosh that must be really infuriating. I wish the US would convert to metric but at least it's not mixed and we generally stick solely to Imperial. I very rarely see metric things. That would drive me batty!!

 

[Delapool]

"For nitrite poisoning salt can impart protection to the fishes. This happens only if the salt content is such that the chloride ion’s concentration is about 30 times that of the nitrite ion concentration in the water. Typically, nitrite becomes toxic at about 0.1 mg/L. This means that the chloride ion concentration would have to be at least 3.0 mg/L. This concentration translates into one of about 5.0 mg/L of salt (NaCl is 60.66% chloride, Cl-); this is equivalent to 18.7 mg/gallon. A teaspoon of table salt is about 5.5 grams (or 5,500 mg); a teaspoon of table salt would be sufficient to protect fishes living in approximately 294 gallons of water ! A standard treatment of SeaChem Prime will typically provide enough protection."

That is from JmcPeak's link Blue Betta USA - The Use of salt

I wish it had references though, I'm hesitant to blithely believe things.

That sounds what I have where a teaspoon of salt will do 300 gallons.

I'm reading a 2002 book on koi (don't keep them but it is a free library book ) and it says nitrate can also cause flashing. It also says salt will reduce ammonia toxicity though which I didn't think was true?

 

[Caliban07]

I'm starting to get a bit confused here. There are too many different views on how much salt is needed to protect against 1ppm nitrite.

Where did that link even get 0.1ppm as toxic?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I'm starting to get a bit confused here. There are too many different views on how much salt is needed to protect against 1ppm nitrite.

Where did that link even get 0.1ppm as toxic?

Perhaps the differing toxic levels are relative to a species or genus?
We have already observed several vastly different lethal levels in the now twice quoted reference PDF. (Top of page 5)

http://ciresweb.colorado.edu/limnology/pubs/pdfs/Pub079.pdf

This one (that's three quotes now!)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Oh my gosh that must be really infuriating. I wish the US would convert to metric but at least it's not mixed and we generally stick solely to Imperial. I very rarely see metric things. That would drive me batty!!

Right, quite correct! Somedays, you use imperial stock with metric finishes! Cement bags is Kgs and litres of water, ready mix cement is ton weight?
the sand is ton weight?

Imperial bricks covered in metric plaster? <rofl
Although some light weight bricks are metric!
You make a hole in metres and fill it by the ton!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/10105034694/

A prime example of me getting it wrong!

 

[Caliban07]

I'm just starting to wonder how prime protects against nitrite poisoning and if other dechlorinators contain anything similar.

 

[threnjen]

I've not read about salt reducing ammonia toxicity.
Does prime have sodium chloride?
I'm not ignoring other responses but I'm laying in bed now on my phoneand Idon't know how to quote and I hate using it to type a lot

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Caliban07]

I've not read about salt reducing ammonia toxicity.
Does prime have sodium chloride?
I'm not ignoring other responses but I'm laying in bed now on my phoneand Idon't know how to quote and I hate using it to type a lot

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Don't worry about it. We might start to see some flawed English. You can't get the ingredients of most products but my guess it that is raises salinity somehow. Easy test that one with one of those salinity meters.

 

[threnjen]

I'm dubious it could do much though, 2 drips per gallon. But you may be right. I will test TDS tomorrow with some prime. If it adds salinity my meter will show it.
This thing is a fun science tool by the way and it was cheap!

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I'm fairly sure it's the same chemical found in amquel and ammo-lock.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/ammo-lock-trouble-high-ammonia-readings-help-300434.html

(I thought that was your thread above?) turns out I'm wrong! Again!


Water changes will solve everything associated with the nitrogenous cycle.
This is a question that now I feel I must ask (don't get mad)

Why waste so much energy looking for an alternate method which let's be honest, is not clear cut? (Many variables for both, species and water chemistry)
(Don't get mad, just my mind working that's all)

If a better understanding is all you want fair enough. Even when things head south, a quick load of fresh water will buy you the time to at least analyse your complete system, count stock, check your sums (math for the USA)

(MUST BE DEDICATED) no other attitude will do!

(I stocked up the old fashioned way, one or two fish and religious testing and changes with a notebook)
(that was the method, I never even heard of fish less cycling until about maybe 5 years ago)
it isn't easy but it is possible IF you test regular (amm) normally a change of water here is required. Then do another dose of clean water for good measure just before you go to bed. You can use your notes to determine the amount of water to change your levels. Once you gain confidence, cut back on tests to daily, maintain water regime until levels optimise? (Balance out, get good)

Use those hardy species like danio, they can happily tolerate the levels and thrive, if the maintenance is kept up. Mine started a couple of systems and apart from the one I killed (syphon horror story) they lived for a few years, close enough to the expected lifespan that I would consider them retired.

(By levels I mean low levels, enough to start the system up, not off the charts)

Edit- for prime, among other things added to combat nitrite nitrate, I assume the ammonia binding chemical would be the same. I think amquel is ammo lock re boxed? At least on paper they are essentially the same. Could be wrong.

 

[Caliban07]

In my line of work I am required to ensure that medical equipment such as anaesthetic machines, patient ventilators, defibrillators are all fully functional and repaired when called upon.

There are procedures and guidelines in place in order to help us do this. We could be handed a manual or worksheet that have all the steps necessary to do this. We could just button press and make sure that we get a big green tick for each test section. But that is not enough. We have to know how a machine works and why it is used. We have to understand the electronics, pneumatics, mechanics and hydraulics behind how these machines work. You have to have a level of clinical understanding in order to make sure you can troubleshoot incorrect use of a particular machine at clinical staff level.

It's in my nature to delve deeper in to things and understand why and how things work. 'Change the water' to me is like looking for a pass on a test. Yes we know it works but that is not enough.

Nature has provided a perfectly good natural preventative to nitrite poisoning. I just think it deserves closer study.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

What's that song? Hello. . . . . . . . Is it me your looking for?

In my line of work I am required to ensure that medical equipment such as anaesthetic machines, patient ventilators, defibrillators are all fully functional and repaired when called upon.

There are procedures and guidelines in place in order to help us do this. We could be handed a manual or worksheet that have all the steps necessary to do this. We could just button press and make sure that we get a big green tick for each test section. But that is not enough. We have to know how a machine works and why it is used. We have to understand the electronics, pneumatics, mechanics and hydraulics behind how these machines work. You have to have a level of clinical understanding in order to make sure you can troubleshoot incorrect use of a particular machine at clinical staff level.

It's in my nature to delve deeper in to things and understand why and how things work. 'Change the water' to me is like looking for a pass on a test. Yes we know it works but that is not enough.

Nature has provided a perfectly good natural preventative to nitrite poisoning. I just think it deserves closer study.

Ok, that's the good answer. (Elaborate and detailed) (often I'm attacked for being excessive with the details!)
(I got physically attacked once for merely explaining myself and I got into Mod grief here for the same reason, but I'm not allowed to explain why to you as that is contravention of company policy)

I am not alone, (currently cancelling my funny farm expedition)

(Broadly speaking)
I'm not sure if natures preventative measures are able to cope with those levels often found in a closed aquatic environment which are rarely encountered naturally and if they are, the species concerned have adapted to suit. Lungfish for example and even swimming elsewhere etc.
(fish jumped out of my tank type situation)

A lot of study has been done so far, I think though, you are (or(are you?)) looking for a generally applied fixative for X nitrite.
(Based on, how much is lethal?)
(This may be wrong of me to think this, once again, in order to protect the danglies, don't get mad!)

I'm not sure you will find a conclusive answer, though I do think you will always keep fish!

(It's simple enough to say ammonia and nitrite are to be considered deadly at any dose, maintain nitrate at or below 30ppm, that's generally acceptable for most things aquatic) I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.

Which leads me to, what exactly are you looking for?

Once you understand the effects on fish, the duties of the fish keeper are clear.

 

[Caliban07]

Ok, that's the good answer. (Elaborate and detailed) (often I'm attacked for being excessive with the details!)

(I got physically attacked once for merely explaining myself and I got into Mod grief here for the same reason, but I'm not allowed to explain why to you as that is contravention of company policy)



I am not alone, (currently cancelling my funny farm expedition)



(Broadly speaking)

I'm not sure if natures preventative measures are able to cope with those levels often found in a closed aquatic environment which are rarely encountered naturally and if they are, the species concerned have adapted to suit. Lungfish for example and even swimming elsewhere etc.

(fish jumped out of my tank type situation)



A lot of study has been done so far, I think though, you are (or(are you?)) looking for a generally applied fixative for X nitrite.

(Based on, how much is lethal?)

(This may be wrong of me to think this, once again, in order to protect the danglies, don't get mad!)



I'm not sure you will find a conclusive answer, though I do think you will always keep fish!



(It's simple enough to say ammonia and nitrite are to be considered deadly at any dose, maintain nitrate at or below 30ppm, that's generally acceptable for most things aquatic) I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.



Which leads me to, what exactly are you looking for?



Once you understand the effects on fish, the duties of the fish keeper are clear.

No you are correct. A tank doesn't replicate hardly anything of the wild. No matter how much you tinker with the water to get it 'right' it will never be like that of the wild. Nitrite can and will kill that's obvious. I'm not suggesting that if we find anything I'm going to go round telling everyone any amount of nitrite is fine.

How many times have you seen posts on here about nitrite toxicity causing deaths? Brown blood disease? Not once have I seen it. That could be because ammonia will have done the damage first? But I do see a lot of people complaining about high nitrites during fish in cycles and I've not seen one that says there fish are showing signs of stress. There has to be a reason for this. It maybe because they have been using prime, have a good level of O2 saturation, the particular fish they have are less susceptible due to size or species.

How do fish survive the nitrite stage of a fish in cycle? There must be a build up? Before nitrite starts to be consumed? Maybe is tap water chloride or dechlorinator properties. I want to look in to the toxicity of nitrite in its entirety simply because I am interested and above all...it's fun. Maybe we will seek advice from a qualified scientist on what their thoughts are.

Threnjen has the same outlook and I'm sure she's going to have something to say but with all do respect I'm not sure you are following along with the spirit of the thread. It's about finding out about the toxicity of nitrite in fish in our aquariums. Why we want to know is irrelevant at this stage. Every thing we learn opens up more questions and quite frankly I find it quite fascinating. I'm not sure you have read all links yet either.?

 

[Delapool]

I've not read about salt reducing ammonia toxicity.
Does prime have sodium chloride?
I'm not ignoring other responses but I'm laying in bed now on my phoneand Idon't know how to quote and I hate using it to type a lot

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

No - it seemed pretty odd to me, I've never heard that before. I'm starting to think the library books are hopeless and I will just look at the pictures instead.

The flashing from nitrite I have never read anywhere else but I guess if there is any sort of chemical irritation it could make sense. Will search a bit more, it would be handy to know for mystery flashing.

The yo yo loach I had flashing stopped about the same time I took all the filter wool wrapped around plants out. I'm not sure that is a positive link though but perhaps confirms flashing may not be just parasite related.

Edit - actually I don't know if the flashing makes sense. Cramps, muscle spasms and lethargy were mentioned flicking through. I've seen posts of fish twitching but I believe that was thought to be parasites. Might be off on a tangent on chronic symptoms anyways.

 

[threnjen]

I know it isn't so clear cut realistically but, you can spend some time doing fun stuff instead. I think species research is more entertaining because you may gain a new suitable species for X tank. Once you have a basic understanding of your water chemistry (location specific) and you understand the nitrogenous cycle, species research. Then you can decide if you need to know more to keep x or y fish, I mean at least as far as water chemistry goes. The info provided so far in all those links points in one direction, it can and will kill. Any more info I think you may need to start a microbiology class and attend vet school.

I think you misunderstand - for us, this IS fun It's not a chore or I wouldn't work on it.

Just visualize me prancing around my house in my lab coat and goggles and test tubes with my microscope in hand... I genuinely enjoy these scientific explorations (and I can always count on Caliban to enjoy them with me lol). (I do own a lab coat. At home. But that's a coincidence and not for this)

To answer your "why?" I think Caliban said it well. Actually I use, as my motivator, "the newbies". If you looked at my posts you'll see 90% of my posts are trying to help out the newbs who are freaking out about one thing or the other with their cycling. I like to come up with clear explanatopms that will help them relax through the process.

I had a great post for a newbie recently about ammonia that I've seen a few people link back to, and that only happened because of Caliban and my extensive research on ammonia toxicity. I was proud of it and I know that it was helpful to the new people.
I want to help people understand their water chemistry in an easy way so it's not so overwhelming to them.

I also just like to know the "why" behind things. It's not really enough for me to just know the what. How come? Don't know, just am this way

I'm not sure what you meant about that Ammo-lock thread being "our thread", Caliban and I (and you of course) were definitely all over that thread if that's what you meant.

 

[threnjen]

No - it seemed pretty odd to me, I've never heard that before. I'm starting to think the library books are hopeless and I will just look at the pictures instead.

The flashing from nitrite I have never read anywhere else but I guess if there is any sort of chemical irritation it could make sense. Will search a bit more, it would be handy to know for mystery flashing.

The yo yo loach I had flashing stopped about the same time I took all the filter wool wrapped around plants out. I'm not sure that is a positive link though but perhaps confirms flashing may not be just parasite related.

Edit - actually I don't know if the flashing makes sense. Cramps, muscle spasms and lethargy were mentioned flicking through. I've seen posts of fish twitching but I believe that was thought to be parasites. Might be off on a tangent on chronic symptoms anyways.

Well what year are they from?
So they say the fish flash from nitrite? I don't know why they would. Nitrite basically lowers the oxygen level in the fish's blood. I can't see why it would make them "itchy". When was the book written?

 

[Caliban07]

I think you misunderstand - for us, this IS fun It's not a chore or I wouldn't work on it.

Just visualize me prancing around my house in my lab coat and goggles and test tubes with my microscope in hand... I genuinely enjoy these scientific explorations (and I can always count on Caliban to enjoy them with me lol). (I do own a lab coat. At home. But that's a coincidence and not for this)

To answer your "why?" I think Caliban said it well. Actually I use, as my motivator, "the newbies". If you looked at my posts you'll see 90% of my posts are trying to help out the newbs who are freaking out about one thing or the other with their cycling. I like to come up with clear explanatopms that will help them relax through the process.

I had a great post for a newbie recently about ammonia that I've seen a few people link back to, and that only happened because of Caliban and my extensive research on ammonia toxicity. I was proud of it and I know that it was helpful to the new people.
I want to help people understand their water chemistry in an easy way so it's not so overwhelming to them.

I also just like to know the "why" behind things. It's not really enough for me to just know the what. How come? Don't know, just am this way

I'm not sure what you meant about that Ammo-lock thread being "our thread", Caliban and I (and you of course) were definitely all over that thread if that's what you meant.

Did you mean nitrate? I'm sure you posted something about this earlier and quoted nitrate?

 

[threnjen]

Did you mean nitrate? I'm sure you posted something about this earlier and quoted nitrate?

Was that to Delapool?

 

[Caliban07]

Was that to Delapool?

Yes sorry