Nitrite toxicity discussion

[J.Mcpeak]

Dangers of Nitrites in Fish | Animals - PawNation

"In aquarium water chemistry, many chemicals interact with each other in complicated ways. While nitrite itself threatens fish directly, it may also be a sign of other problems in the water. Any detectable level of nitrite is too high; if you can detect it, you must address the underlying problem.


In a healthy, established aquarium, various bacteria break down ammonia, nitrite, phosphate and other contaminants. Aquarium antibiotics, sudden changes in water chemistry and broken aquarium equipment can harm these bacteria. So if you see a sudden spike in nitrite in such a tank, there's a good chance something else is amiss, so test your water for ammonia, phosphate and pH. While nitrite can be a problem all by itself, it's also a warning sign that something else has gone wrong.
Dangers to Fish
Nitrite is toxic to aquarium fish, whether of freshwater or marine varieties. It's chemically similar to ammonia and causes similar problems, though it is somewhat milder. Nitrite can burn the gills of aquarium fish. Additionally, despite damage to the gills, fish can still absorb nitrite into their bloodstream, where it can cause internal chemical burns. Fish suffering from nitrite poisoning will typically breath rapidly and swim in darting motions. They may also appear to gasp at the surface of the water."

This is a good brief summary, it should explain why you may feel like we are meandering around the subject of nitrite as opposed to being focused on it, the interaction of nitrite is just one piece of the puzzle and I think to a certain extent the other elements involved (mainly nh3/4, and pH) need to be acknowledged at least briefly as they all have some effect on each of the factors involved and within themselves.

Dabbling with one will effect another. (Aside from gaining the understanding of toxicity damage) I think the other compounds involved should be covered so it is more complete as a subject.

 

[Delapool]

Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.

 

[Caliban07]

Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.

The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.

Tap water is vastly different everywhere in the world. Even per annum there will be some deviation in your own supply. So the quick answer is no. If you have hard water, potentially yes, but, is this water suitable to use with the species concerned? Maybe for a tank of rift lake cichlids but not so sure about anything else. Some species may be ok. Alkalophiles. (That's really a very big question worthy of its own thread, it would be massive as the input would also be huge)

worldwide water parameters! Input. . .

 

[J.Mcpeak]

The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Chloride makes nitrite less toxic, I re quote PDF in post 1. First paragraph. (It's more like the sub heading)
This could be why marine organisms are less prone to nitrite toxicity.
Low pH makes nitrite more toxic.

(I may have mis interpreted what you have said.)

Is that a measure of chloride or nitrite at source? I assume it's chloride, it seems like you are saying "chloride could contribute towards nitrite toxicity?"

Edit, LOW PH HAS A NEGLIGIBLE RESULT ON NITRITE TOXICITY. Low pH makes nitrite more toxic should be dismissed. (See below)

 

[threnjen]

Chloride makes nitrite less toxic, I re quote PDF in post 1. First paragraph. (It's more like the sub heading)
This could be why marine organisms are less prone to nitrite toxicity.
Low pH makes nitrite more toxic.

(I may have mis interpreted what you have said.)

Is that a measure of chloride or nitrite at source? I assume it's chloride, it seems like you are saying "chloride could contribute towards nitrite toxicity?"

We know it makes it less toxic, that has been a key point of a lot of this thread. The discussion of chloride and its positive effects on toxicity. This is why we were discussing sodium chlorida (aka salt)

Can you qualify that low pH makes nitrite more toxic? I read that one place but there were no references or sources.

 

[Delapool]

Tap water is vastly different everywhere in the world. Even per annum there will be some deviation in your own supply. So the quick answer is no. If you have hard water, potentially yes, but, is this water suitable to use with the species concerned? Maybe for a tank of rift lake cichlids but not so sure about anything else. Some species may be ok. Alkalophiles. (That's really a very big question worthy of its own thread, it would be massive as the input would also be huge)



worldwide water parameters! Input. . .

Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.

 

[threnjen]

Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.

You should look up your water quality report, it might be interesting.

I <3 my water here... my TDS (total dissolved solids) out of tap is between 14-18. It's pretty great, like a blank canvas!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

We know it makes it less toxic, that has been a key point of a lot of this thread. The discussion of chloride and its positive effects on toxicity. This is why we were discussing sodium chlorida (aka salt)

Can you qualify that low pH makes nitrite more toxic? I read that one place but there were no references or sources.

The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.

Gh is your hardness/softness. Kh is your alkalinity (high Kh=high pH) that's overly simple but normally works out that way.


(My tap water TDS fluctuates around 280ppm @ pH 8, far from a blank canvas!)

 

[Delapool]

Great idea, this is what I found in a water report and I would assume we are on the low side.

"Chloride:--- In surface water, the concentration of chloride is typically less than 100 mg/L while groundwater can have higher concentrations, particularly if there is salt water intrusion. In Australian drinking water supplies chloride levels range up to 350 mg/L depending on local source characteristics."


------ Edit
Just saw this earlier up so maybe nitrite to 2ppm roughly will be ok if I have ~100mg/l of chlorides in tap?

------------------
Table salt:
3.55g or 1/2 level tsp added 1142ppm to 1 gallon water.
So appx 1/2tsp (3550mg) per 10 gallons of aquarium water, which is appx 1/2 tsp per 40 liters (37.85 liters). So weight per 10L using more accurate conversion is 938mg. That would be really small on a spoon though. I think the smallest you could present it as a measurement is 1/4tsp per 20L.
This yields appx 100ppm, protection for 1ppm nitrite. (will actually yield about 114ppm, so maybe just stress that the spoon should not be mounded but level or even a bit under)

 

[threnjen]

The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?

Calcium chloride makes it less toxic. Sodium chloride makes it less toxic. It is the chloride ions that are important.

Caliban got the chloride number from his water quality report, not a test. So the water quality report specifically registers the levels of Cl in the water. I don't think it's important so much if it's paired with Na or Ca, but I agree it is probably Ca.

Yes, I agree it is toxic at very very low pH like under 5, but we don't operate in aquaria at pH that low, so for our application I believe we can consider that irrelevant.

 

[threnjen]

Great idea, this is what I found in a water report and I would assume we are on the low side.

"Chloride:--- In surface water, the concentration of chloride is typically less than 100 mg/L while groundwater can have higher concentrations, particularly if there is salt water intrusion. In Australian drinking water supplies chloride levels range up to 350 mg/L depending on local source characteristics."


------ Edit
Just saw this earlier up so maybe nitrite to 2ppm roughly will be ok if I have ~100mg/l of chlorides in tap?

------------------
Table salt:
3.55g or 1/2 level tsp added 1142ppm to 1 gallon water.
So appx 1/2tsp (3550mg) per 10 gallons of aquarium water, which is appx 1/2 tsp per 40 liters (37.85 liters). So weight per 10L using more accurate conversion is 938mg. That would be really small on a spoon though. I think the smallest you could present it as a measurement is 1/4tsp per 20L.
This yields appx 100ppm, protection for 1ppm nitrite. (will actually yield about 114ppm, so maybe just stress that the spoon should not be mounded but level or even a bit under)

I need to look more into this math. Since sodium is actually NaCl, I need to look up the molar mass to determine how much of salt is actually sodium and how much is chloride. Since it's only the chloride ions that are important to the equation. I think there would have to be more ppm "salt" added to make sure we're hitting a certain ppm of chloride specifically. So I will math this out in more accuracy. I was not accounting for the sodium ion when I did this before.

Also the 100ppm Cl:1ppm nitrite was from one of the papers we linked up front, but they don't all agree. Not totally sure what number to swing for.

If your tap is 100ppm chloride wouldn't that make it protect 1ppm nitrite if we use that ratio?

 

[threnjen]

Cl makes up .61 of a molecule of NaCl. So as an approximate, basically double what I said before to make up the chloride ions. Does this make sense? (not certain I am correct)

 

[threnjen]

What is TDS? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Confirmation that a TDS meter does measure both Sodium and Chloride ions, so my reading was legitimate. The only thing that could have thrown it off was the very small amount of anti-caking agent but I am sure this is piddly %.

 

[Delapool]

Ah, I see - makes sense. Yes, better maths would be great as well. I did it on the train this morning something like 'ok, I need people up the front, say 100, what the heck, jam in 200 and 1 down the back - wow, ok, wait, I've got that back to front, everyone swap over...'

 

[Delapool]

Gh is your hardness/softness. Kh is your alkalinity (high Kh=high pH) that's overly simple but normally works out that way.





(My tap water TDS fluctuates around 280ppm @ pH 8, far from a blank canvas!)

Out of interest is it worth getting a TDS meter? They look cheap. Main one I need is kh due to my soft water, I usually don't bother with gh (test is old anyways). Tank is just a community tank, nothing special.

 

[Caliban07]

The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?

It is from my united utilities in depth water report. It says chloride. Not sodium or calcium. Just chloride. 5.5mg/l

 

[threnjen]

Out of interest is it worth getting a TDS meter? They look cheap. Main one I need is kh due to my soft water, I usually don't bother with gh (test is old anyways). Tank is just a community tank, nothing special.

I thought it was cheap and I find it really useful. Fun fact - if you keep your TDS same between tanks, you can transfer fish without acclimating. I use the meter almost every day for this and that. It was only 20 USD (and I saw later that there is a $15 model).

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I need to look more into this math. Since sodium is actually NaCl, I need to look up the molar mass to determine how much of salt is actually sodium and how much is chloride. Since it's only the chloride ions that are important to the equation. I think there would have to be more ppm "salt" added to make sure we're hitting a certain ppm of chloride specifically. So I will math this out in more accuracy. I was not accounting for the sodium ion when I did this before.

Also the 100ppm Cl:1ppm nitrite was from one of the papers we linked up front, but they don't all agree. Not totally sure what number to swing for.

If your tap is 100ppm chloride wouldn't that make it protect 1ppm nitrite if we use that ratio?

Sodium is Na it can appear alone as, sodium (Na) alkaline metal.
Sodium chloride is Na-Cl. Sodium bicarbonate Na-HCO3.

Sodium Salts - Salts | Sigma-Aldrich

(Whole page of sodium salts)