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Old 12-28-2013, 06:57 PM   #111
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Here is a microbiology article about bacteria in aquaria
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

Haven't even read it yet.

Here is another paper which in the abstract mentions research on nitrifying inhibition
http://ftp.mpi-bremen.de/pub/molecol...ication_detail

Still need to read this one too. I will do that now, wish me luck. The content is a little dry :P
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:09 PM   #112
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Ugh ultimately I am not a scientist and these papers are difficult for me to follow.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:16 PM   #113
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OK I just got to the part of the second paper that I posted, where it discusses inhibition.
Unfortunately C&P is not working to get it over here so let me try and summarize.

High concentrations of Free Ammonia (FA) can hamper activity and growth of nitrifying bacteria. Concentrations of 10-150 mg FA 1^-1 were reported to be inhibitory to Nitrosomas whereas .1-1.0 mg FA 1^-1 was found to inhibit Nitrobacter.

Citation: http://ftp.mpi-bremen.de/pub/molecol...ication_detail
Page 9


OK so does anyone know what the concentrations numbers mean? Are those numbers representative of concentrations, or do we need to know the total water in the system tested? What the heck does the FA 1^-1 mean?
WTB biologist
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:18 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
Today's test results:

pH 7.2
NitrItes still off the charts (this will be the case for a while now)
NitrAtes coming in! About 30ppm right now. Actually it's too bad I didn't check yesterday, I would have had a reading I bet

Delapool my water is ridiculously soft and my kH is 0, my main tank I have to add a lot of stuff to get a buffer.
I have wondered if a very low kH will also slow the process down. The article below mentions a little on what it calls adequate buffering levels.

http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com...ication%20.pdf
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:27 PM   #115
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Loss of Ammonia Monooxygenase Activity in Nitrosomonas europaea upon Exposure to Nitrite
Another one to read. This one is about the toxicity of nitrite to nitrosomonas, but I see it discussing inhibition etc
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:33 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
I have wondered if a very low kH will also slow the process down. The article below mentions a little on what it calls adequate buffering levels.

http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com...ication%20.pdf
Good article thanks!!

I see the part about buffering but in the context of the article, it seems to be more related to keeping the pH over 6.5 which is something we can manually do in aquaria via baking soda, coral etc.
I read it as: have an adequate buffer so that the pH cannot drop below 6.5
As long as my pH doesn't drop below this, there should be no requirement for a buffer.

An interesting hypothesis but I don't think that kH actually does anything in relation to the process, besides keeping the pH stable (and, more accurately, not even stable but ABOVE 6.5) , which is something that we can monitor ourselves

It does mean that someone with soft water and no buffers will need to be more vigilant when cycling. When I cycled my 90, I actually DID have a pH crash and a cycle stall because I didn't know about this stuff.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:39 PM   #117
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Hmm there are too many articles to read tonight but I'm glad we're finally getting to see actual scientific tests and that scientists do care what goes on in the everyday aquarium.

From what I read in that article is the high concentrations of ammonia does not inhibit nitrospira growth.

I don't know if we can control our tests as well as these people in the labs lol
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:45 PM   #118
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I know, but if we can gather enough information, we can at LEAST either confirm or deny the "too high ammonia is bad! too high nitrite is bad!" thing that goes around and demands lots of water changes during a fishless cycle.
I've found even MORE articles. I am definitely on the right track. Unfortunately, my brain is going into a kind of overload. I think I need to look over these articles one by one, take notes elsewhere (instead of brain dumping here) and then come back and post some summaries of the relevant information I've culled.

I've just read some really interesting stuff that I think you might be interested in because of our conversation yesterday where you posited that "if you grow too much nitrosonomas[ammonia eating], there isn't room for the nitrobacter[nitrite eating] to grow". This current paper I'm looking at implies that nitrite itself is inhibitory to the growth of nitrosonomas, which would mean that as soon as the nitrobacter starts to grow, the nitrosonomas STOPS growing. Basically implying there should be "room enough for everyone"
... you following all this?

My brain is turning to mush. I need to go play a video game or something and take a break from this lol
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:47 PM   #119
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Interesting stuff, I might have to read these on the larger computer screen when back home in a day, little bit painful on the small iPhone screen.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:52 PM   #120
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But that would blow my theory out of the water and I'm not ready for that. Please link all these articles for me

I still think the low dosing will be the quickest cycle, it has to be!
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