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Old 12-28-2013, 07:54 PM   #121
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Just a note, anything I posted recently about Nitrospira is invalid to us, as that is not the same as Nitrosonomas and Nitrobacter.

I'll compile all the articles that seem any good post all of the links together, give me a few.

Almost your bedtime Caliban? Some nice dry reading to put you to sleep
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:56 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I know, but if we can gather enough information, we can at LEAST either confirm or deny the "too high ammonia is bad! too high nitrite is bad!" thing that goes around and demands lots of water changes during a fishless cycle.
I've found even MORE articles. I am definitely on the right track. Unfortunately, my brain is going into a kind of overload. I think I need to look over these articles one by one, take notes elsewhere (instead of brain dumping here) and then come back and post some summaries of the relevant information I've culled.

I've just read some really interesting stuff that I think you might be interested in because of our conversation yesterday where you posited that "if you grow too much nitrosonomas[ammonia eating], there isn't room for the nitrobacter[nitrite eating] to grow". This current paper I'm looking at implies that nitrite itself is inhibitory to the growth of nitrosonomas, which would mean that as soon as the nitrobacter starts to grow, the nitrosonomas STOPS growing. Basically implying there should be "room enough for everyone"
... you following all this?

My brain is turning to mush. I need to go play a video game or something and take a break from this lol

Although this could also indicate why some people report that ammonia stays where it is for some time. I've heard people claim that ammonia has hung at 2ppm for example for days. This could be because nitrite I think you mean nitrospira? Eating bacteria has started to grow. This to me would indicate that the bacterias are working TOGETHER.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:58 PM   #123
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The articles I just read conclude that nitrobacter is not the bacteria responsible for the breakdown of nitrite. It is nitrospira in freshwater aquaria unless I am mistaken nitrospira is very valid to us.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:23 PM   #124
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OK here comes my link dump. I have not read all of these, no way. These are just everything that I have bookmarked to read and research.

The following are links resulting from my google search "nitrosomona inhibition high ammonia":
http://ftp.mpi-bremen.de/pub/molecol...ication_detail
Loss of Ammonia Monooxygenase Activity in Nitrosomonas europaea upon Exposure to Nitrite
Nitrite as a stimulus for ammonia-sta... [Appl Environ Microbiol. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.environmental-expert.com/...2678%5C401.pdf
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com...ication%20.pdf (Delapool's link)
Nitrite as a Stimulus for Ammonia-Starved Nitrosomonas europaea
Strict and Facultative Anaerobes: Medical and Environmental Aspects - Google Books
Microbial Granulation Technology for Nutrient Removal from Wastewater - Yu Liu, Lei Qin, Shu-Fang Yang - Google Books

The following are links resulting from my google search "nitrobacter inhibition high nitrite":
Nitrogen Compounds: Advances in Research and Application: 2011 Edition - Google Books
http://www.isws.illinois.edu/pubdoc/CR/ISWSCR-326.pdf
Limited impact of free ammonia on Nitrobac... [Bioresour Technol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
The Prokaryotes: A Handbook on the Biology of Bacteria - Stanley Falkow, Eugene Rosenberg, Erko Stackebrandt - Google Books
Lesson 21: Nitrates and Nitrites
The Nitrogen Cycle - How Ammonia and Nitrite are Controlled in Wastewater and Aquatic Environmentsetc.
Total Nitrification balance
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:26 PM   #125
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OK I see the things you are saying about Nitrospira. I found the paper and then a follow-up article by the author.
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

Follow-up by author: All Tropical Fish - Bacteria Revealed

This requires more research as well

Google search "nitrospira freshwater aquaria":
http://books.google.com/books?id=sTs...quaria&f=false
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Nitrospira
Here's other people talking about this in 2009: http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aq...itrospira.html
http://www.microbial-ecology.net/nitriteoxidizers.asp
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC93301/
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:45 PM   #126
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Wow I just read the follow-up article by Dr Tim and I'm flabbergasted, this is not what we have been taught at all!
That article he wrote was excellent - still technical, but presented a bit more conversationally so it was easier to follow his process and results.

So our 2nd bacteria (nitrite to nitrate) are nitrospira?? Not nitrobacter?
Are there other articles out there asserting/proving/confirming his results?
This is huge. This means that bacterial additives are SCIENTIFICALLY BUNK unless they have nitrospira instead of nitrobacter.

/ugh now i need another search entirely. Inhibition of high nitrites on nitrospira!
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:02 PM   #127
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OK it's not like it hasn't been said before elsewhere in different years (and swept under the rug), but do you guys realize that we just discovered why bottled bacteria never works (at least not instantly), and we have SCIENTIFIC DATA to back that up?

It only speeds up the growth of the nitrite-eating bacteria (Nitrospira) a little bit and it's probably ONLY because the Nitrosomonas added can help produce some nitrites very early on (before they die) that the Nitrospira can start eating/growing with.

This is huge. We need to keep this up, we can really contribute something to the hobby if we can take all of these scientific papers and studies and condense them into some practical application to share.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:34 PM   #128
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http://www.ceric.net/wonmun3/ksee/04712722.pdf
This one is about the inhibition of BOTH Nitrobacter and Nitrospira at different levels of free ammonia. Interesting and useful as it may imply that the colony of nitrite-eating bacteria could be of different composition depending how much ammonia and nitrites are present. Pub 2008

https://ftp.kdis.edu.cn/211-xkkr-13/...bioreactor.pdf
Influence of parameters on Nitrobacter AND Nitrospira communities. Pub 2010. This is an interesting one which tries to optimize conditions to grow a particular bacteria because they don't have the same environmental needs.

I'm finding now that our aquarium may grow different nitrite-eating bacteria depending on our ammonia, nitrite, temperature levels. MAYBE. This is a theory, I still need to read all of these (although it is becoming too daunting)
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:08 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Mebbid View Post
I saw an interview of Dr tims creator about his bottled bacteria. He basically stated that most bottled bacteria is the type that comes from waste treatment plants which is more suited to live in super high nutrient environments where ammonia and nitrite is off the charts rather than our low nutrient systems. This is apparently why a lot of people have issues using bottled bacteria.
I have only now realized that Dr Tim is Dr Tim who co-authored the paper on Nitrospira.

I'm looking more into his papers and research now.
Here is another paper co-authored by Dr Tim. This one is about the ammonia oxidizing bacteria.
http://www.drtimhovanec.com/Publicat...es/page8_1.pdf

I actually got excited for a little while, thinking Dr Tim might actually be accessible for contact and discussion, but I imagine he is out of my reach. I would have to pay him for consulting services. In addition, since he has a line of aquarium additives, that would make it difficult for me to trust that he doesn't have an agenda. A shame!
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:44 AM   #130
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OK.
Breakthrough. BIG BREAKTHROUGH.

The ammonia that inhibits nitrifying bacteria is FREE AMMONIA ONLY (NH3)
But MOST AMMONIA in our system at a time is AMMONIUM
Your Guide to Ammonia Toxicity (Mebbid provided this link)

Therefore when it is reported and perpetuated that high ammonia inhibits nitrifying bacteria, in actuality only free ammonia (NH3) and not the sum total of ammonia and ammonium do this (which is what test kits report - they report SUM TOTAL)
Meaning our cycle can tolerate a FAR HIGHER reading of ammonia on our test kits than people have been led to believe and perpetuate (depending on pH).

Here's a quote
"
Free ammonia and ammonium:

Ammonia is far more toxic than ammonium the pH and temperature will determine the percentage of ammonia to ammonium found in the aquatic environment.
At 24C:
pH 7 - 0.5% of total ammonia is NH3
pH 8 - 5% of total ammonia is NH3
pH 8.2 - 7.7% of total ammonia is NH3
pH 8.4 - 11.6% of total ammonia is NH3
pH 8.6 - 17.3% of total ammonia is NH3
Free ammonia (NH3) will inhibit nitrification at the following levels: Nitrosomonas marina/biospira 10 mg/ and for nitrobacter/nitrospira just 0.1 mg/l. This has implications if you are trying to cycle a marine tank or a freshwater tank with a high pH for African cichlids for example and using the standard internet recommendation of 4 mg/l of ammonia.
Because the free ammonia level will be approx 0.4 mg/l and this substantially inhibit the rate at which nitrite is converted to nitrate. "
Source: Nitrifying bacteria


I will find some additional sources that are more "original" (i.e. the actual paper studies) but I hope that you guys following see what a breakthrough this information is to what we think we "know"

On a side note this explains how/why I can cycle successfully with 18ppm ammonia. Using the above information as an example, at 18ppm NH3+Nh4 I actually only have .495ppm of ACTUAL FREE AMMONIA which is WELL under the 10ppm that the Nitrosomonas can actually tolerate. Given my pH, I would have to have 100ppm of NH3+NH4+ to have even 2ppm of free ammonia. And keep in mind, nitrosomonas can actually tolerate up to 10ppm free ammonia (NH3)

You may ask, what makes ammonia be ammonium? pH. Just pH. I lost my source but I have a paper/article about this. Ammonia likes to team up with "something"(forget what) to make ammonium. The lower the pH, the more of the "somethings" in the water. When there is an available "something", the ammonia pairs with it and becomes ammonium. Simple as that.

OK so WHY do we perpetuate a particular level of ammonia in the cycle? This is the next question. This one DOES have a theory, which is that the nitrIte eating bacterias cannot tolerate ammonia nearly as well.
More research required.

However, I am going to make the following statement: Your nitrosomonas (ammonia eating bacteria) cannot/will not stall due to excessively high ammonia (within reason).
MYTH #1 BUSTED!

Rebuttals welcome. I realize I still need to post some higher qualified sources.

By the way, the bacteria responsible for ammonia oxidation in aquaria is called Nitrosomonas Marina. In this study they studied aquaria bacteria and you can also see that they kept the level of NH3 (again, free ammonia) at 5-10ppm while growing the ammonia oxidizing bacteria for study.
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