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Old 12-29-2013, 07:31 PM   #151
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Yes we are the cycling doctors lol. Phosphate block does affect the nitrospira and could be a reason why high nitrites occur for days. Having said that, simply changing the water would add trace elements of phosphates that the bacteria use.

So again, changing water could be useful to stop phosphate block, and reduce the possibility of pH crash.

No the het bacteria is always present but it feeds on organic matter. In a bucket with one filling of water, the organics would run out. That's my thinking.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:39 PM   #152
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I guess I just don't consider water changing a very simple task, as compared to dropping in a flake of food or pinch of baking soda or what have you. In my 90 it's a fairly time consuming task to change water. If someone had told me I could just add a pinch of baking soda and walk away, I'd be counting my blessings!

I would guess the bacteria just goes dormant, but I haven't read much about heterotrophic bacteria since it's not the primary stuff in our cycle right? That's the autotrophic bacteria?
I feel I've heard/read that bacterial additives often don't work because they are heterotrophic bacteria and they can't latch on and reproduce?
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:42 PM   #153
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My fish in cycle in a 15 gallon tank with 4 harlequin rasbora took a month. API test kit always read 0.25ppm ammonia. But I also had a seachem safe start that had a reading of 0.025ppm ammonia and it was matching this.

I'm thinking that the API was reading some ammonia but total ammonia and this was the only colour it could go 0.25ppm.

So 5% of that would be 0.00125ppm ammonia and must have been why the seachem ammonia alert was reading 0.025ppm yellow and 'safe'. Because that's the only colour it could go.

Totally off topic and ignore of you want but the more we get in to this the more it's convincing me that fish in cycling is very harshly treated.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:48 PM   #154
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My fish in cycle in a 15 gallon tank with 4 harlequin rasbora took a month. API test kit always read 0.25ppm ammonia. But I also had a seachem safe start that had a reading of 0.025ppm ammonia and it was matching this.

I'm thinking that the API was reading some ammonia but total ammonia and this was the only colour it could go 0.25ppm.

So 5% of that would be 0.00125ppm ammonia and must have been why the seachem ammonia alert was reading 0.025ppm yellow and 'safe'. Because that's the only colour it could go.

Totally off topic and ignore of you want but the more we get in to this the more it's convincing me that fish in cycling is very harshly treated.
That would actually be 0.0125 caliban

Fishless cycling only gets a bad name through people who neglect the water change and often thats beginners, this is my particular driving force behind suggesting fishless cycling.

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Old 12-29-2013, 07:48 PM   #155
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I guess I just don't consider water changing a very simple task, as compared to dropping in a flake of food or pinch of baking soda or what have you. In my 90 it's a fairly time consuming task to change water. If someone had told me I could just add a pinch of baking soda and walk away, I'd be counting my blessings!

I would guess the bacteria just goes dormant, but I haven't read much about heterotrophic bacteria since it's not the primary stuff in our cycle right? That's the autotrophic bacteria?
I feel I've heard/read that bacterial additives often don't work because they are heterotrophic bacteria and they can't latch on and reproduce?

No you are right. Changing water is a nightmare. I have 2 47 gallons and it ain't good. Of course once the cycle is complete water changing must be encouraged.

Heterotrophic bacteria is the bacteria responsible for creating ammonia for nitrosomonas. It requires organic matter such as fish waste, food etc. It's the starting bacteria. If we do not have any organic matter to be broken down (fishless cycle) what happens to it?

This is the bacteria that is responsible for bacterial bloom I believe.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:56 PM   #156
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That would actually be 0.0125 caliban

Fishless cycling only gets a bad name through people who neglect the water change and often thats beginners, this is my particular driving force behind suggesting fishless cycling.

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Omg it is. Got carried away with zeros again. Even so, this would mean my fish on cycle was always safe.
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Old 12-29-2013, 08:10 PM   #157
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Bed time. Night to you both. Btw molli I agree newbies do make mistakes. Some people accuse fish in cyclers of being inhumane and that I don't think is true. Explaining this evidence to these people would be pointless but it gives me piece of mind

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Old 12-29-2013, 08:58 PM   #158
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Bed time. Night to you both. Btw molli I agree newbies do make mistakes. Some people accuse fish in cyclers of being inhumane and that I don't think is true. Explaining this evidence to these people would be pointless but it gives me piece of mind

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Well im actually one of those people but i can understand in some aspects when its presented by someone who knows how it should be preformed. I still think fishin should be kept to a minimum for new comers to an extent and more for people who understand the chemistry.

I think suggesting fish in cycles to some beginners is a bad idea as beginners (not all) attempting fish in cycles have more of a tendancy not to undertake or even know when to undertake a water change when it's needed and dont follow it. Usually its the more mature new keepers that want to learn and proform it to a higher standard. Fishless is obviously more forgiving where fishin can be fatal or very unkind if not preformed properly and this is another reason i suggest fishless cycles. Fish are beautiful and patience is a virtue and in my case i found my patience grew with age.

If suggesting a fishless cycle to beginner saves lives why not be passionate about.

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Old 12-30-2013, 04:51 AM   #159
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I haven't been much in the mood to read scientific papers today so I haven't made any research advances. Tomorrow maybe...
Let me know Caliban if you read something good!

Also where is Sixtyfou? Did he miss a couple days and now is too overwhelmed with the 100 new posts :P
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:26 AM   #160
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Well im actually one of those people but i can understand in some aspects when its presented by someone who knows how it should be preformed. I still think fishin should be kept to a minimum for new comers to an extent and more for people who understand the chemistry.

I think suggesting fish in cycles to some beginners is a bad idea as beginners (not all) attempting fish in cycles have more of a tendancy not to undertake or even know when to undertake a water change when it's needed and dont follow it. Usually its the more mature new keepers that want to learn and proform it to a higher standard. Fishless is obviously more forgiving where fishin can be fatal or very unkind if not preformed properly and this is another reason i suggest fishless cycles. Fish are beautiful and patience is a virtue and in my case i found my patience grew with age.

If suggesting a fishless cycle to beginner saves lives why not be passionate about.

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Yes I can accept views from people who understand what both methods are about and realise that both methods can be done without harming fish if done correctly. I guess you are right. Newbies are less likley to follow the rules and for that reason I will be less hasty to recommend fish in cycling. However, I dont really have time for the people who dont fully understand the fish in cycle and claim to be a better person just because they do fishless.

Like me with fish in, you are fine doing fishless and have had no problems but me and renjen are seeing a distinct pattern on these forums which suggest that newbies are having problems performing fishless cycles using the instructions on this forum. We are trying to investigate reasons why people are experiencing difficulties and if you would like to help out by giving us things you know that would be great.

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