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Old 12-30-2013, 07:29 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I haven't been much in the mood to read scientific papers today so I haven't made any research advances. Tomorrow maybe...
Let me know Caliban if you read something good!

Also where is Sixtyfou? Did he miss a couple days and now is too overwhelmed with the 100 new posts :P
Ok I have more reading to do. Another note. Higher temperatures increases the metabolism of nitrosomonas thus increasing activity. This uses more saturated oxygen. Nitrospira does not perform as well under lower o2 levels as nitrosomonas.

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Old 12-30-2013, 08:55 PM   #162
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Hi all, quickly skimmed - has anything been seen on what will slow down the nitrate conversion part of the cycle? All I say was a reference to 20ppm (link below). Also that certain metals (at low ph) may be an issue (which prime or such would take care of anyway).

Total Nitrification balance

Edit - brain is fried, off to the fish shop lol.

Another edit - what was meant by phosphate blocker and water changes fixing?
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:08 PM   #163
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Delapool this is the phase of research I'm at too and I haven't gotten to do all the reading- the nitrate conversion part. And arguably that's the most important part to solve, because that's where people get hung up. I've just had a busy couple days and haven't had a chance to work on it more.

That looks like a good link! Although they name Nitrobacter as the stuff that converts to Nitrate, where we now know that in aquaria there may be more Nitrospira as the conversion bacteria. This whole topic just requires some additional study.

Re: Phosphates
One of the bacterias (or is it all?) actually requires phosphates for the energy for their conversion, in very low amounts. Generally there is enough in the water since the amount needed is very trace. But Caliban's argument is that sometimes a WC is necessary because the nitrite stage has stalled because all available phosphates in the water are used up, and a WC will restore those. I also propose that adding some flake food at the start of the cycle could add enough phosphate to take the cycle to the end.

As a note: On the crazy cycle I am running right now I did NOT add any phosphates
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:11 PM   #164
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Ok I have more reading to do. Another note. Higher temperatures increases the metabolism of nitrosomonas thus increasing activity. This uses more saturated oxygen. Nitrospira does not perform as well under lower o2 levels as nitrosomonas.
One thing I also saw somewhere is that Nitrospira prefers low nitrites and high temps, where Nitrobacter prefers high nitrites and low temps.
It's very, very possible that we are building different bacterial colonies from each other when we choose different cycling techniques, that all accomplish the same thing in the end. It's interesting!
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:42 PM   #165
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We need more people to run fishless cycles for data gathering

I made this post, I hope some people will sign up

On an unrelated note, @Caliban, I am traditionally a member of the "fishless cycling 4eva!" brigade, but even I have to admit that some of the stuff we have learned makes me thing that fish-in cycling may not be so bad in the hands of an informed keeper.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:51 AM   #166
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2 signups already for testing!

So I'm proposing 3 dosing plans-
Conservative method aka Caliban's plan
Standard method aka the 4ppm method
Aggressive method aka "my" method (I am not the inventor of the method, for that I give credit to jrman83 of aquariumforum.com)

So I'm hoping we get at least 6 signups min, so there can be at least 2 tests per method.

I'm also thinking I'll get one more filter and heater so that I can run all three methods as well, rather than just two.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:34 AM   #167
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A whole new spin on this experiment. Do chlorine/chloramines really affect the bacteria? We could run another test that does not dechlorinate water beforehand. Would this new condition breed another bacteria strain that is sensitive to parameters that nirospira are not? Would the cycle start slower and start once the chlorine has been dispersed from the water?

Dum dum duuum! Or am I just complicating matters?

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Old 12-31-2013, 04:43 AM   #168
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lol!! too many variables! Save that one for a later experiment :P

I'm bummed what you noted about the filters and tank sizes for others running the cycle though! I mean you're totally right. We just don't have that much control.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:44 AM   #169
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My husband just asked me how my "thesis" is coming. He has noticed I haven't been reading the science papers today. Such a slacker I am.

It's only 12:45AM, sounds like a great time to start some heavy reading.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:08 AM   #170
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A task for those more scientifically inclined:

From the Havonec report about Nitrospira as the nitrite oxidizing bacteria.

"Three all-glass aquaria were established as described above. A 34-liter sample of city tap water, which was passed through activated carbon, was added to each aquarium, which contained 4.53 kg of gravel. Initially, 0.71 mmol of filter-sterilized (0.2-mm-pore-size filter) ammonium chlo-ride was added to each tank, followed by an additional dosing of 5.0 mmol of NH4 Cl on the fourth day. On days 10, 15, 18, 23, and 30, further ammonia additions of 8.9 mmol were made to each aquarium. During the test, a total of 50.4 mmol of ammonia was added to each aquarium. Water samples werecollected daily"

Question: What is mmol of ammonium chloride as a ppm in their 34 liter water sample?
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