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Old 01-03-2014, 04:28 AM   #211
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Can I assume though it gets tougher at the nitrite stage?


I think advantages of a lower dose cycle completing initially would be:
a) plenty of physical space for colonies to grow (I haven't seen studies on the bacteria having actual physical space problems)
b) no inhibitory levels of anything

I personally am expecting, in practice, for it to take longer depending on your end goal (4ppm? less?) because once you cycle it to that small initial level, then you have to grow all new bacteria for the next level

Yes. That was the initial thought. Let's still go with that a target of 4ppm starting with lower dosing. I think it might come down to bacteria efficiency at doing their job rather than numbers. Therefore a dosing say from 1ppm straight to 2ppm may not see much difference in time although bacteria would grow. 4ppm off the bat could cause inhibitory problems that can slow the cycle. I hope we are both right and it's conditions that matter and not dosing.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:31 AM   #212
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a) This was where my next trail of thought was heading. How much nitrite is produced from 1 unit of ammonia and what are the toxicity levels of nitrite.
1 ppm ammonia = 1 ppm nitrite = 1 ppm nitrate?
This person isn't a chemist, just did napkin math, and thinks 1ppm ammonia converts to 2.7ppm nitrite.
Weirdly I am having trouble finding other statements on the web about this. I must be asking the wrong questions...

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b) I dont believe water changes are necessary. I do one when fish in cycling and thats to add some phosphate as i read about the block a while back. I think you could easily not do any. Especially at lower doses as we now know that alkalinity and dissolved oxygen uses would be even less thus WC would be less important.
We do seem to know better now about the impact of the TAN in a fish-in cycle. I would still do fishless for myself but I have lost a lot of reservations about fish-in due to what we have learned.

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c) We dont. Could it be that fish during a cycle are susceptible to low DO as the bacteria are using it to establish a colony. Could this cause gasping at the surface as opposed to ammonia burn? There may be other reasons we havent thought of yet.
I think that is an excellent hypothesis.

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d) Not many but i feel that this should be enforced to a newbie. At least that way they can do what they want with the info.
So many of them are so confused by the whole process. I WANT to inform the whole world but apparently I don't trust the whole world to grasp it. Like one of the people you replied to yesterday it was obvious it just went right over his head. I wish I could better guage the ability of a newbie to grasp the more complicated stuff. Like you said it would make their lives easier if they knew...
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:32 AM   #213
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I agree completely. Obviously it's even more important not to change water during the tests. Add a pinch of fish food for phosphates and increase buffering capacity. It maybe be a good idea to see if there is a difference when not adding buffers or fish food.
Except in very low doses of ammonia I think the cycle is bound to pH crash if we resolve not to add anything.
As a note I haven't added any fish food on my bucket cycle. It *may* actually be stalled. If it is in fact stalled I can and will blame the phosphorus.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:50 AM   #214
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Except in very low doses of ammonia I think the cycle is bound to pH crash if we resolve not to add anything.
As a note I haven't added any fish food on my bucket cycle. It *may* actually be stalled. If it is in fact stalled I can and will blame the phosphorus.

Hmmm would low or higher doses be more susceptible. More ammonia = more energy usege= more use of alkalinity and creation of pH lowering acids?
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:02 AM   #215
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1 ppm ammonia = 1 ppm nitrite = 1 ppm nitrate?
This person isn't a chemist, just did napkin math, and thinks 1ppm ammonia converts to 2.7ppm nitrite.
Weirdly I am having trouble finding other statements on the web about this. I must be asking the wrong questions...


We do seem to know better now about the impact of the TAN in a fish-in cycle. I would still do fishless for myself but I have lost a lot of reservations about fish-in due to what we have learned.


I think that is an excellent hypothesis.


So many of them are so confused by the whole process. I WANT to inform the whole world but apparently I don't trust the whole world to grasp it. Like one of the people you replied to yesterday it was obvious it just went right over his head. I wish I could better guage the ability of a newbie to grasp the more complicated stuff. Like you said it would make their lives easier if they knew...

This is interesting. I think what we need to know is how LESS toxic is nitrite to ammonia? Remember 1ppm is still a lot less free ammonia depending on pH. Does this bare any resemblance with nitrite? Is nitrite being produced from ammonium or free ammonia?
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:06 AM   #216
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Hmmm would low or higher doses be more susceptible. More ammonia = more energy usege= more use of alkalinity and creation of pH lowering acids?
High doses what be susceptible. I think I just left out a comma so my sentence was unclear.
I don't think it would pH crash in low doses, like the .25 starting point.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:08 AM   #217
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This is interesting. I think what we need to know is how LESS toxic is nitrite to ammonia? Remember 1ppm is still a lot less free ammonia depending on pH. Does this bare any resemblance with nitrite? Is nitrite being produced from ammonium or free ammonia?
Nitrite is produced by both, those bacteria will eat either.

So, tidbit - fish-in cycling BEST performed at the lowest pH that still allows nitrification without inhibition. 6.5. Now let's try telling THAT to a newbie (I don't even know how to lower pH!). After all that has the lowest possible free ammonia level!

As far as I know about Nitrite I think it's more toxic than ammonia. I am sure I have seen something somewhere. Will look it up.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:15 AM   #218
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Source: http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-11-461.pdf

The presence of sublethal concentrations of noxious chemicals in freshwater environments can promote the emergence and development of infectious diseases in fish (Carballo and Munoz, 1991;Carballo et al., 1995). Rainbow trout exposed for 24 hours to 0.24 mg/l NO2 (corresponding to 50% of lethal concentration) were challenged after toxin exposure with Saprolegnia parasitica causing mycotic dermal infection. The acute stress response provoked by the toxin exposure accounts for the main contribution to the increase in saprolegniosis susceptibility, representing approximately a 100% increase in the percentage of infected fish when compared with the control group

Bromide, which is chemically similar to chloride, was studied by Eddy et al. (1983), who found that 1mM of sodium bromide (80 mg/l) was enough to offset the presence of 0.7mM nitrite (32 mg/l nitrite-N) almost completely for Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) in fresh water.


Calcium chloride was more effective than sodium chloride at reducing nitrite toxicity in striped bass (Morone saxatilis) (Mazik et al., 1991) or shortnose sturgeon fingerlings (Acipenser brevirostrum)(Fontenot and Isely, 1999). On the other hand, Bowser et al. (1983) found that sodium chloride and calcium chloride provided equivalent protection against nitrite toxicity for channel catfish, suggesting that the identity of the metal cation was of small importance.
Krous et al. (1982) pointed out that high concentrations of calcium generally reduced the loss of chloride through the gills. This in turn diminished the requirement for nitrite uptake. Thus there are theoretical reasons to expect that calcium ions will reduce toxicity although experimental work that has been done so far proves that the effect is a weak one.

Calcium chloride like this?? http://www.amazon.com/Calcium-Chlori...lcium+chloride
Sodium Bromide: http://www.amazon.com/Leisure-BE1-So...sodium+bromide
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:27 AM   #219
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Source: Nitrite Toxicity - WikiVet

"Nitrite is much less toxic when chloride is present, possibly because chloride inhibits nitrate absorption across the gills.
Sodium chloride is the most available and cheapest source of chloride."

"Species susceptibility to nitrate is variable and is linked to chloride uptake by the gills. Nitrite competes for chloride absorption, therefore fish with a high chloride uptake such as the rainbow trout, the perch, the pike and the catfish are more susceptible to nitrite. In contrast, the largemouth and smallmouth bass, bluegill and green sunfish are resistant to high concentrations of nitrite."
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:32 AM   #220
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Source: http://ciresweb.colorado.edu/limnolo...dfs/Pub079.pdf
The addition of 1 mg/L chloride increased the increases the 96 LC-50 [concentration lethal to half the test subjects in 96 hours] level by .29 to 2.0mg/l, depending on the species.
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