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Old 01-04-2014, 06:47 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
I heard adding fish food helps with phosphate?
It does. How much it adds though is harder to determine, whereas if you dose phosphates specifically, you get a much greater deal of control. Also of concern is the bioavailability of phosphate in flake form, as it must first be processed and released by other bacteria to reach filters, whereas pure phosphate is instantly available.


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Well these are conditions we are working towards however, ammonia dosing, frequency of dosing, time of cycle and whether water changes are necessary. It would seem that a water change plan would be beneficial but not for the reasons people might be thinking.

However, If we could add something that means we can just forget about it then this may be better. Or if we can help people understand the importance of macronutrients and other nutrients they can at least choose whether or Not to add these at the start or do a water change, since this would be less cost.

Just look at the getting started page in freshwater. There are 6 threads in a row that are struggling with this fishless cycle. It needs addressing.
The problem arises when you try educate people on the matter. Unfortunately, so much of what is known is in shades of gray rather than black and white. It's easier to develop a 'catch all' method and apply it to all rather than supply a dissertation on bacterial ecology that's more likely to confuse the reader.

What I would say is needed is a revamped guide with clear directions to be followed, followed by a discussion about why different things are advised. Fortunately, a lot is known on the matter that simply needs to be translated into a palatable format for the complete beginner.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:04 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by aqua_chem View Post
It does. How much it adds though is harder to determine, whereas if you dose phosphates specifically, you get a much greater deal of control. Also of concern is the bioavailability of phosphate in flake form, as it must first be processed and released by other bacteria to reach filters, whereas pure phosphate is instantly available.









The problem arises when you try educate people on the matter. Unfortunately, so much of what is known is in shades of gray rather than black and white. It's easier to develop a 'catch all' method and apply it to all rather than supply a dissertation on bacterial ecology that's more likely to confuse the reader.



What I would say is needed is a revamped guide with clear directions to be followed, followed by a discussion about why different things are advised. Fortunately, a lot is known on the matter that simply needs to be translated into a palatable format for the complete beginner.

This is exactly the problem. There are many users of this forum I have come across that preach the same conditions that we had recently studied. Whether or not they are preached because they have heard another preach this info or have studied it directly themselves remains to be seen but the information must have come from somewhere right?

We have always known that things we have read for ourselves would not be new knowledge but this guide seems to be causing many problems.

There is someone suggesting to a newbie that adding fish food will do nothing for the cycle other than go mouldy.

I think in the spirit if keeping things Simple and to reduce cost that we should advocate water changes. Sorry Jen. However, structured water changes need to be looked at. When is the best time to do one etc.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:20 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by aqua_chem View Post
It does. How much it adds though is harder to determine, whereas if you dose phosphates specifically, you get a much greater deal of control. Also of concern is the bioavailability of phosphate in flake form, as it must first be processed and released by other bacteria to reach filters, whereas pure phosphate is instantly available.
In the interest of using something that is easily available though to a newbie, that is fish food.
One thing to consider is that since most water will have some traces of phosphate, the cycle can use the trace amounts in the water until the phosphate produced by the fish food becomes available.



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The problem arises when you try educate people on the matter. Unfortunately, so much of what is known is in shades of gray rather than black and white. It's easier to develop a 'catch all' method and apply it to all rather than supply a dissertation on bacterial ecology that's more likely to confuse the reader.
I don't want to bombard people with the science stuff - just do what you say in the next quote -

Quote:
What I would say is needed is a revamped guide with clear directions to be followed, followed by a discussion about why different things are advised. Fortunately, a lot is known on the matter that simply needs to be translated into a palatable format for the complete beginner.
What i envision is a post/article with our new proposed guidelines, in an easily readable form which is simple for the newbie to read and understand.
This followed by a slightly expanded faq/discussion of each item in the guide with why this is advised (just what you said) which includes citations to specific scientific studies that support our statements.
I'd also like the FAQ to include the questions of the things we have disproven -
"won't high ammonia stall the cycle/'
"won't high nitrites stall the cycle"
etc etc, again with our answers in easily readable format, then with citations

In fact i don't think it's awful to provide two answers to each question
QUICK ANSWER: Science shows us that ammonia in the levels that we use does not stall the cycle.
DETAILED ANSWER: Scientific research papers have shown that only Free Ammonia inhibits bacteria. Free Ammonia makes up only a small percentage of the available ammonia during the cycle (avg 2.5%). It would take 10ppm of Free Ammonia to inhibit our bacteria, which would correspond to 400ppm of ammonia reading by our test! as you can see, ammonia levels that we encounter will never be inhibitory. (citations)

i don't think there is anything wrong with providing two answers to each question - the quick and dirty, and the more detailed. ESPECIALLY because the established members are going to be the ones challenging us, and they will require more in-depth information to be satisfied. if people are satisfied with the quick answer, they move on. But the detailed answer conveys what we want them to understand.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:23 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
This is exactly the problem. There are many users of this forum I have come across that preach the same conditions that we had recently studied. Whether or not they are preached because they have heard another preach this info or have studied it directly themselves remains to be seen but the information must have come from somewhere right?

We have always known that things we have read for ourselves would not be new knowledge but this guide seems to be causing many problems.

There is someone suggesting to a newbie that adding fish food will do nothing for the cycle other than go mouldy.

I think in the spirit if keeping things Simple and to reduce cost that we should advocate water changes. Sorry Jen. However, structured water changes need to be looked at. When is the best time to do one etc.
I'm still not convinced. Why take out the nitrites that the bacteria need to establish the properly sized colony? Nothing about that makes sense to me.

i seriously think (although I have not looked THAT many places) that this is the only forum that advocates water changes and I think it's because it mysteriously advocates nonstop 4ppm dosing.

Homework for you and me as well - research other articles on fishless cycling from other sources. what are the most standard recommendations?
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:35 PM   #265
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I'm still not convinced. Why take out the nitrites that the bacteria need to establish the properly sized colony? Nothing about that makes sense to me.

i seriously think (although I have not looked THAT many places) that this is the only forum that advocates water changes and I think it's because it mysteriously advocates nonstop 4ppm dosing.

Homework for you and me as well - research other articles on fishless cycling from other sources. what are the most standard recommendations?

Ok I can see what you mean but how much food are we actually taking out.? If the nutrients in water are limited and the removal of food is detrimental to the process I can see your point.

If nutrients in a water change are beneficial to ensure the cycle doesn't stall without removal of food being detrimental to the process then a water change needs to be considered as this is the simplest thing for a newbie and we are trying to keep things simple with the best interests of newbies in mind. So far the newbie will require plant ferts, fish food, ammonia, a test kit etc.

I'm just playing devils advocate here to try and make sure we are thinking everything through. I'm only we don't want to deter people from this method by complicating matters. Plus we don't yet know when to add fish food, how much is required, when to add ferts and how much is required. These are going to be important instructions.

Gulp what if we prove further down the line that fish in cycling is perfectly safe if done x way? The newbie then gets to stock their tank and cycle there tank without compromising the safety of their fish or purchasing anything but fish and a test kit. We could kill the fishless cycle for good! Lol I'm thinking too much I know.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:54 PM   #266
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Do we even have some evidence about plant gets I must have missed something

anytime in the studies where the solution had food it was phosphorous
I'm not seeing proof that anyone needs ferts, clearly cycles h all the time without it
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:55 PM   #267
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happen sorry I am phone stupid

and ferts go away auto correct
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:43 PM   #268
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I'm still not convinced. Why take out the nitrites that the bacteria need to establish the properly sized colony? Nothing about that makes sense to me.
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Ok I can see what you mean but how much food are we actually taking out.? If the nutrients in water are limited and the removal of food is detrimental to the process I can see your point.

The problem here is with the logic of "If some of a good thing is good, than more of a good thing must be better. It doesn't translate to bacteria very well though.

Let's say you are pie eating bacteria. Once you get full of pie, you stop eating, split into two identical pie eating bacteria, and start eating again. Now lets say there is a milling pies in front of you. Does that change how fast your population grows? No, because it wont necessarily change how fast you can eat pie. Therefore, it follows that if someone takes away half of those pies, you're not going to grow any faster or slower because you couldn't eat those pies if you wanted to. In the end, it doesn't really matter until you have a population in the hundreds of thousands. On a exponential scale, this is ultimately very small, ie, 20 doubling periods vs 22 doubling periods. By the math, a single 50% water change only sets you back one doubling period. The biggest impact a water change can have, as I see it, is reintroducing exhausted minerals or buffers, if that's even going to be an issue.



And for the record, we are not the only site with a guide that advocates continuous ammonia dosing. Literally, they all do.

Fishless cycling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How to Do a Fishless Cycle: 9 Steps - wikiHow
Fishless Cycle / Nitrogen Cycle
Cycling Your New Fresh Water Tank: Read This First! - Cycle your Tank - Tropical Fish Forums
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:50 PM   #269
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Do we even have some evidence about plant gets I must have missed something

anytime in the studies where the solution had food it was phosphorous
I'm not seeing proof that anyone needs ferts, clearly cycles h all the time without it
I'm not sure what you mean about plants, but ferts thing is pretty basic. Bacteria need minerals to function just as plants or fish do. You can't add pure ammonia to pure water and expect life to spring out. Some of the time tap water has relevant minerals in it, but often it doesn't, which is why I dose micronutrients and macronutrients into a tank that's getting cycled fishlessly. Even if it will eventually cycle in a deficient environment, it would do so much quicker with all essential nutrients.


Also, be careful about distinguishing what people say the cause of something was and what they can actually prove. Nine times out of ten they have no real way to attribute cause and effect in this hobby.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:51 AM   #270
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The problem here is with the logic of "If some of a good thing is good, than more of a good thing must be better. It doesn't translate to bacteria very well though.

Let's say you are pie eating bacteria. Once you get full of pie, you stop eating, split into two identical pie eating bacteria, and start eating again. Now lets say there is a milling pies in front of you. Does that change how fast your population grows? No, because it wont necessarily change how fast you can eat pie. Therefore, it follows that if someone takes away half of those pies, you're not going to grow any faster or slower because you couldn't eat those pies if you wanted to. In the end, it doesn't really matter until you have a population in the hundreds of thousands. On a exponential scale, this is ultimately very small, ie, 20 doubling periods vs 22 doubling periods. By the math, a single 50% water change only sets you back one doubling period. The biggest impact a water change can have, as I see it, is reintroducing exhausted minerals or buffers, if that's even going to be an issue.
I guess I am not sure what we are arguing here.
Are you in favor of a water change?



I'm sorry but it makes me grumpy for you to say "Literally, they all do." when that is demonstrably false.

I checked only 4 places after I read that statement by you to see what their instructions are. 1 of them has a copy of our forum's instructions (at theplantedtank.net). The other 3 do not advocate continuously dosing 4ppm ammonia.

The Fishless Cycle
The Fishless Cycle - Aquarium Forum
Cycling an Aquarium — Seriously Fish
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