Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Community Forum > Aquaria Off-Topic
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 01-05-2014, 12:53 AM   #271
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by aqua_chem View Post
I'm not sure what you mean about plants, but ferts thing is pretty basic. Bacteria need minerals to function just as plants or fish do. You can't add pure ammonia to pure water and expect life to spring out. Some of the time tap water has relevant minerals in it, but often it doesn't, which is why I dose micronutrients and macronutrients into a tank that's getting cycled fishlessly. Even if it will eventually cycle in a deficient environment, it would do so much quicker with all essential nutrients.


Also, be careful about distinguishing what people say the cause of something was and what they can actually prove. Nine times out of ten they have no real way to attribute cause and effect in this hobby.
All right. Where are we going with this I guess?
__________________

__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 03:35 AM   #272
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: i dont remember. let me take my arm out of the tank.
Posts: 680
Proud to say my 2g community tank calculated 0 ammonia!
__________________

__________________
Fibsog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 06:56 AM   #273
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Sorry for any terse posts earlier today - I was out and about and either using my phone or my mom's computer where the shift key only seems to work 1/3 of the time. (well the one where I was grumpy was from home, I wanted to edit it for friendlier tone but my edit window has passed!)

I can compromise on the water change issue, I'm not going to be unyielding as it's a team effort. Also, we have 5 people signed up so we *could* issue five different sets of instructions, although I still think it would be most valuable for us to double them up.
Also, for us to get even somewhat interesting data (as I think we can agree that this will not be a truly scientific experiment in any way), we actually need to decide what the variable is that we are testing, and it needs to be the only variable. So if we decide on water changes as our variable, then for example the amounts and schedule ammonia dosing should remain the same.

Alternatively, we can agree that our experiment lacks SO MUCH scientific validity that we could instead write different instructions for every participant of the study. What we will get out of that I don't know, but we could at LEAST have a non-scientific list of "see all of the different instructions that people used and STILL SUCCEEDED WITH?" It doesn't have to be scientific to have some value to the community.

I'm still interested in low level, "standard" level and aggressive dosing. Originally I wanted to double those up, but in the absence of it being a proper experiment, we could also introduce water changes as a variable and have 6 instruction sets.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:00 AM   #274
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Caliban07's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 5,313
Whether or not other sites do or do not advocate water changes is irrelevant. I am only interested in this forum and the problems it is clearly having.

The fact is, not everyone who does a fishless cycle has problems molliwop for example has done many with no problems, he/she is an experienced keeper though and may not follow the cycle rules as per the sticky. Why do some work and some not?

Would I be right in saying that although bacteria prefer a temp of say 30 degrees this temp increases their motabolism using more dissolved oxygen and more nutrients and in water with already scarce nutrients this could be detrimental to the process? Does low nutrients in tap water follow a pattern I.e low pH? Each question opens up another. Lets concentrate on answering each others questions which could ultimatly end these problems. Nutrients is a very valid point at this stage. It could mean that peoples baseline tap water is more important than first thought. So rather than ask people if there water has x amount of this nutrient etc, lets just encourage the use if a nutrient enriched product and phosphus using fish food in this case would at least give heterotrophic bacteria something to do. If we encourage this then we dont have to worry about these stalling our cycle even if they dont, wheres the harm in having the angles covered. Would a choice of adding nutrients in a bottle or doing an x amount of water changed on x day in our new guide be a bad thing.

Lets concentrate on covering all possibilities in our guide that would see a cycle stall. What we originally believed stalled a cycle we now know is bs

As for ammonia dosing im still under the impression that 1 4ppm dose is enough to see you through a full cycle. I think what we need to study, is how much ammonia the average community tank creates a week. If we want to dose more ammonia as maintenence it should be a little higher than this.

If peoples tap water is differents which we know it is then we would require paricipants from parts where water differs greatly.

There was a thread on here where a guy was told by his LFS that the R/O water which he sold was a better quality water for his fish. So the guy goes out and buys this water tries to do a fishless cycle and it stalls. No nutrients in R/O water right?

Sent from my SM-T210 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
__________________
Caliban07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:09 AM   #275
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
Whether or not other sites do or do not advocate water changes is irrelevant. I am only interested in this forum and the problems it is clearly having.

The fact is, not everyone who does a fishless cycle has problems molliwop for example has done many with no problems, he/she is an experienced keeper though and may not follow the cycle rules as per the sticky. Why do some work and some not?
Maybe we should contact some folks like this and ask them if they followed the stick or deviated?
Or we could just make a post in General asking something like - If you fishless cycled successfully on the first try, did you follow the forum's instructions to the letter, if not what did you do differently?
Although if we go that route I'd propose you make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
Would I be right in saying that although bacteria prefer a temp of say 30 degrees this temp increases their motabolism using more dissolved oxygen and more nutrients and in water with already scarce nutrients this could be detrimental to the process?
Hmm could be.
Did we read somewhere that Nitrospiras likes it cooler?? I swear I did. Ugh another thing to go look up.

Quote:
Does low nutrients in tap water follow a pattern I.e low pH?
Do tap water nutrients correspond at all to gH and kH? Or are these totally unrelated?
I mean my tap water is so soft that it is practically RO. I have to add a bunch of crap to it like Seachem Equilibrium (in display, not in cycle) and I was told it's because the low gH and kH mean it is nearly devoid of nutrients.
And we know that RO or distilled water are nutrient devoid, so does "Equilibrium" have the basics?
Not that I'm suggesting we recommend Equilibrium - just wonder what "the basics" are exactly.
Edit: Whoops looks like there is a different product Replenish. I don't know what I am talking about with this part clearly.

Quote:
Each question opens up another. Lets concentrate on answering each others questions which could ultimatly end these problems. Nutrients is a very valid point at this stage. It could mean that peoples baseline tap water is more important than first thought. So rather than ask people if there water has x amount of this nutrient etc, lets just encourage the use if a nutrient enriched product and phosphus using fish food in this case would at least give heterotrophic bacteria something to do. If we encourage this then we dont have to worry about these stalling our cycle even if they dont, wheres the harm in having the angles covered. Would a choice of adding nutrients in a bottle or doing an x amount of water changed on x day in our new guide be a bad thing.
OK. I accept this. I would just prefer we have it as a recommendation rather than a requirement? I worry about the "newbie shopping list"

Quote:
Lets concentrate on covering all possibilities in our guide that would see a cycle stall. What we originally believed stalled a cycle we now know is bs

As for ammonia dosing im still under the impression that 1 4ppm dose is enough to see you through a full cycle. I think what we need to study, is how much ammonia the average community tank creates a week. If we want to dose more ammonia as maintenence it should be a little higher than this.
Some of the sites do a 5ppm dose. Maybe we should do 5ppm JUST to SLIGHTLY challenge people's misconceptions about the "too high ammonia!" without making too big of an issue about it. What do you think of this idea?

Quote:
If peoples tap water is differents which we know it is then we would require paricipants from parts where water differs greatly.
So you propose that ultimately we are looking at the differences in tap water?

Quote:
There was a thread on here where a guy was told by his LFS that the R/O water which he sold was a better quality water for his fish. So the guy goes out and buys this water tries to do a fishless cycle and it stalls. No nutrients in R/O water right?
I saw that, the thread is such a mess.
His cycle hasn't really stalled though, it has only been a few days and he hasn't even added ammonia. That thread totally confuses me, I need to read it again. I don't really understand what the problem is or what OS is diagnosing. Perhaps I just did not give it my full attention.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:28 AM   #276
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Caliban07's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 5,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
Maybe we should contact some folks like this and ask them if they followed the stick or deviated?
Or we could just make a post in General asking something like - If you fishless cycled successfully on the first try, did you follow the forum's instructions to the letter, if not what did you do differently?
Although if we go that route I'd propose you make it.


Hmm could be.
Did we read somewhere that Nitrospiras likes it cooler?? I swear I did. Ugh another thing to go look up.

Do tap water nutrients correspond at all to gH and kH? Or are these totally unrelated?
I mean my tap water is so soft that it is practically RO. I have to add a bunch of crap to it like Seachem Equilibrium (in display, not in cycle) and I was told it's because the low gH and kH mean it is nearly devoid of nutrients.
And we know that RO or distilled water are nutrient devoid, so does "Equilibrium" have the basics?
Not that I'm suggesting we recommend Equilibrium - just wonder what "the basics" are exactly.
Edit: Whoops looks like there is a different product Replenish. I don't know what I am talking about with this part clearly.

OK. I accept this. I would just prefer we have it as a recommendation rather than a requirement? I worry about the "newbie shopping list"

Some of the sites do a 5ppm dose. Maybe we should do 5ppm JUST to SLIGHTLY challenge people's misconceptions about the "too high ammonia!" without making too big of an issue about it. What do you think of this idea?

So you propose that ultimately we are looking at the differences in tap water?

I saw that, the thread is such a mess.
His cycle hasn't really stalled though, it has only been a few days and he hasn't even added ammonia. That thread totally confuses me, I need to read it again. I don't really understand what the problem is or what OS is diagnosing. Perhaps I just did not give it my full attention.


Lol I actually remember reading that now. Once I saw no ammonia was used and a continual diagnoses of something else I just stayed clear.

But look, what if we ran the fishless cycle with two buckets of r/0 water. One with replenish and phosphate and one with just phosphate? This would highlight the importance if nutrients right.

5ppm of ammonia seems like a good idea to me. Nitrates will be much lower at the end too thus slightly improving the cycle.

I don't propose with focus too much attention on the sticky outside of this thread just yet. I'll get in touch with molli and see if they will come in this one for a bit. I'm sure he doses back up to 4ppm again and again though. Gulp!
__________________
Caliban07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:35 AM   #277
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban07 View Post
Lol I actually remember reading that now. Once I saw no ammonia was used and a continual diagnoses of something else I just stayed clear.
Yeah I finally tried to tackle it since you brought it up, I probably just muddled the issue further

Quote:
But look, what if we ran the fishless cycle with two buckets of r/0 water. One with replenish and phosphate and one with just phosphate? This would highlight the importance if nutrients right.
I can do this one, I'm willing to buy the replenish
Although I am convinced enough about phosphate being a KEY ingredient that I would propose the Replenish being the variable and the phosphate being a critical element of the process.
This will leave me with one remaining bucket and I can run the same experiment as the rest of our assignees, with whatever variable we decide on, unless water IS the variable which is quite valid.
Quote:
5ppm of ammonia seems like a good idea to me. Nitrates will be much lower at the end too thus slightly improving the cycle.
Great, I think this will be "just enough" higher than people normally accept to challenge and confuse preconceived notions.

Quote:
I don't propose with focus too much attention on the sticky outside of this thread just yet. I'll get in touch with molli and see if they will come in this one for a bit. I'm sure he doses back up to 4ppm again and again though. Gulp!
Righto, agreed.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:37 AM   #278
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Might not need to buy Replenish, Equilibrium might suffice.

Equlibrium - Equilibrium™ contains only calcium, magnesium, and potassium salts
Replenish - Replenish™ restores General Hardness (GH) using a balanced blend of both “soft” (sodium, potassium) and “hard” (calcium, magnesium) salts

So Equilibrium doesn't have sodium, but that will be in the baking soda right?

I do have to tell you though - if this is really the key element, my tank would never cycle. I have 1/3-1/2 grains of hardness per million, as per my city water quality report. I have basically nothing.

... unless I am still misunderstanding the things we want to add.
What is in plant ferts?
I think aqua chem mentioned, I need to go back and look
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 07:43 AM   #279
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
threnjen's Avatar


 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,611
Even if we opt to let people dose back up to 5ppm, it should at least be specified that we mean no more than once a day lol.
__________________
threnjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 08:01 AM   #280
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Caliban07's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 5,313
I think even less than once per day is think when nitrites are starting to come down. This would then advocate the necessity to test a lot. Do we want this?

Are we using baking soda? Would indeed.

So far the list of things the newbie would need to 'ensure' a successful fishless cycle every time are.

Bottle of pure ammonia
Bottle of equilibrium or similar
Baking soda
Fish food or direct phosphate (complicated)
API master test kit
Use of plants encouraged

We need to know amounts of these.

Conditions:
Temp 30 degrees
Light minimal as not to effect plants.
Increased surface agitation (water surface breakage)

Have I missed anything?

ALL participants should use methods exactly the same. And keep a log of their finding. Testing ammonia drop after I would say 10 days? So on
__________________

__________________
Caliban07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
test

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off








» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.