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Old 01-05-2014, 08:10 AM   #281
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Well you know I advocate less than once a day when we see nitrites, so you'll see no argument from me.

Personally - rather than make the equilibrium part of our experiment panel (especially because I worry that's a lot to ask of people, monetarily) I'd rather study the differences in their source water by NOT adding equilibrium.

Or are you just suggesting things we would advise in our eventual cycling article? Because I totally agree with that. Equilibrium, plant fertilizer, what? We think it's equilibrium that has the "key" things?

I think I should get started right away on the distilled water buckets with and without equilibrium. I suppose we are waiting for our test subjects to complete their tests anyway before we have an article, though. But nonetheless I have three buckets with three matching filters just awaiting the tests that I in particular should run.

Everything you have said I agree with, except for if you were suggesting we have our test participants use equilibrium, because I don't want to lose any participants by making things excessively complicated for them or require them to spend extra money. I think we make all other things equal and use it as an opportunity to study different source waters. If you don't agree with this, is there some way to get equilibrium to them? Any idea the country of our various participants? I suppose I could send some out but only to US people. International shipping is quite spendy (I know, I do it for a living)

Aqua chem, what do you think of all of this, or do you think we are headed down the wrong path?

This is goodnight for me. It's 4AM... See you in 8 hours. Lucky for me the kids are spending the night tonight at grandma and grandpa's and won't be knocking at 8... At least I'm such a night owl Caliban or we would always be two ships passing in the night and rarely be able to discuss anything :P

I would test nitrites starting day 7, OR as soon as they see ammonia drop, whichever is sooner
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:33 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
Well you know I advocate less than once a day when we see nitrites, so you'll see no argument from me.

Personally - rather than make the equilibrium part of our experiment panel (especially because I worry that's a lot to ask of people, monetarily) I'd rather study the differences in their source water by NOT adding equilibrium.

Or are you just suggesting things we would advise in our eventual cycling article? Because I totally agree with that. Equilibrium, plant fertilizer, what? We think it's equilibrium that has the "key" things?

I think I should get started right away on the distilled water buckets with and without equilibrium. I suppose we are waiting for our test subjects to complete their tests anyway before we have an article, though. But nonetheless I have three buckets with three matching filters just awaiting the tests that I in particular should run.

Everything you have said I agree with, except for if you were suggesting we have our test participants use equilibrium, because I don't want to lose any participants by making things excessively complicated for them or require them to spend extra money. I think we make all other things equal and use it as an opportunity to study different source waters. If you don't agree with this, is there some way to get equilibrium to them? Any idea the country of our various participants? I suppose I could send some out but only to US people. International shipping is quite spendy (I know, I do it for a living)

Aqua chem, what do you think of all of this, or do you think we are headed down the wrong path?

This is goodnight for me. It's 4AM... See you in 8 hours. Lucky for me the kids are spending the night tonight at grandma and grandpa's and won't be knocking at 8... At least I'm such a night owl Caliban or we would always be two ships passing in the night and rarely be able to discuss anything :P

I would test nitrites starting day 7, OR as soon as they see ammonia drop, whichever is sooner

No I was suggesting equilibrium for the end cycling instructions not for the tests. Are you still going to add fish food? As we believe phosphate is the key I would add fish food to both buckets and replenish to only one. If both buckets cycle equally in nutrient depleted water we can assume the necessity to use equilibrium is not an important factor and it is indeed phosphate that is the key. If the bucket with only phosphate fails then it confirms that the nutrients are important

We need to ensure all buckets cycle with no problems including the ones with R/O water.

Maybe it's fate you are a vampire. Lol
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:24 PM   #283
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I did realize overnight that I am probably being unnecessarily stubborn about the "dosing back up every day" thing.

I mean... aqua chem is right and eventually the nitrite eaters will catch up, and the whole point IS to clear in 24 hours. So obviously at some point it will do just that.

However, the reason I think it's NOT so necessary is that in the beginning when you keep dosing the ammonia back up to 4 (or 5) over and over, you do create that nitrite backlog for the nitrite eaters to work on. without seeing a graph I can't be sure, but maybe the amount of backlog you create roughly corresponds to a 4ppm/day dosing.

I guess I just envision that it takes a day or two off of the cycle to not keep building the nitrites up, but without graphing a perfect plot of numbers, it's not like we can know.
AND since we now know that nitrites won't stall the cycle, this backlog shouldn't be of real concern.
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:29 PM   #284
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I'm kind of disgusted with myself. Last night my 10g hospital tank became "available" () So i broke it down, nuked it, and then moved most of the stuff from my cycling bucket to it (driftwood, gravel, sponge filter). Left a HOB in the cycling bucket. So I basically split the material up in my casual experiment, which was kind of stupid.
I remind myself that this is specifically what I was cycling it for, but it was not quite complete and surely I could have waited a few more days for complete data. I can't just assume that I took out 1/2 of the bacteria.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:15 PM   #285
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I'm sorry but it makes me grumpy for you to say "Literally, they all do." when that is demonstrably false.

I checked only 4 places after I read that statement by you to see what their instructions are. 1 of them has a copy of our forum's instructions (at theplantedtank.net). The other 3 do not advocate continuously dosing 4ppm ammonia.

The Fishless Cycle
The Fishless Cycle - Aquarium Forum
Cycling an Aquarium — Seriously Fish

What I said is that we weren't the only site that advocated continuous dosage, 4 ppm or not. All those do as well:

From source #1:
"You should began to very soon see nitrites, perhaps after only dosing the tank once or twice. When that happens, now only add ammonia of one/half of your original dose when you started. Ammonia is only redosed when previous dose has dropped to 0 and only one time a day."

Source #2:
"Test your ammonia levels at least once every 24 hours. Once they begin to drop add the appropriate amount of ammonia to bring the levels back up to 3-5ppm.

Now that the ammonia levels have begun to drop it is time to pull out your nitrite test kit and begin monitoring both the ammonia and nitrite levels. Again testing should be done at least once every 24 hours. Keep dosing ammonia to maintain adequate levels (3-5ppm).

At some point your nitrites will peak at around 5ppm. At this time I recommend cutting your ammonia dosage by 50% and reduce the frequency of dosing to every other day.


Source #3:
Each day at the same time you need to test the ammonia reading and then add only enough to raise this back to 5ppm, not by a further 5 ppm. For the first few days you may not notice any movement, especially if you didnít have a source of bacteria at the start. Once the ammonia starts to drop between readings you can test for nitrIte.

When the nitrIte level begins to rise sharply there is no need to top the ammonia up to 5 ppm every day. Instead aim for a level of 2-3ppm as this will help speed up the growth of the Nitrospira sp. colonies. Nitrospira sp. is much slower to multiply than Nitrosomonas sp. and youíll find that the nitrIte stays high for much longer than the ammonia did. However once it does start to fall it falls very quickly.




My point was that most directions tell you to continuously redose ammonia, if not to 4 ppm than to a lesser concentration, but there will be an accumulation in all cases. 4 ppm is a pretty arbitrary beyond the initial dosage.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:25 PM   #286
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I think it's best to unequivocally state what specifically you're testing and how you're testing it. You should probably pick only one variable for the first round, and then worry about how you're going to control for everything else and fashion your endpoints to properly test your hypothesis.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:33 PM   #287
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I believe that our only variable at this point is going to be the source water.
We don't have control over the tank size or filters that people use, but we will homogenize all other aspects of the test as much as possible.


Just as an example of the frustrating issues when we all don't agree on what to do:
Why isn't my cycled done?
everything was fine for the Op but then she got 17 different sets of instructions (exaggeration) and now is hopelessly confused again.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:11 AM   #288
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Caliban, I tried to PM you, but your inbox is full (don't forget your sent folder counts too)
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:10 AM   #289
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Okay now that I've sorta read through the thread (I skimmed a little, so don't slap me too hard if I missed something)

So the goal is to write a new updated fishless cycling guide?

I can tell you that very few, if any, of the guides that you find on various forums are totally independent. Most glean from one another, and some copy directly. Many forum posters frequent multiple forums, or did in the past, so a lot of information overlaps from one to the other.

The 4ppm thing (I believe) comes from a recommendation by Dr. Hovanec at the one and only site faq.

The big issue I think will be figuring out what actually needs to be changed in a new guide, simple is good. I think that water changes are smart in a stall situation. The reasoning is simple: 1) it's cheap and easy to do. 2) It reduces the concentration of a certain agent that is stalling the cycle (unlikely) 3) It replenishes trace nutrients and even some macros and 4) no harm, no foul. Doing a water change may or may not help anything, but it's not going to hurt anything either.

That said, I'm not a big fan of fishless cycling, and I think fish-in is the best way to go in FW tanks, so I admit I have a bias to the process in general.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:13 AM   #290
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Caliban, I tried to PM you, but your inbox is full (don't forget your sent folder counts too)

Cleared
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