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Old 01-06-2014, 06:15 AM   #291
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Ruddy app has crashed twice so this post is short

What causes a stall in your experience?

Low ph/ kh,
High nitrites? +20ppm?
Low phosphate?

A few updates or tweaks to the guide may help as this question seems to get posted a lot (or they don't know what to look for and are jumping the gun)?
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:35 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post
Okay now that I've sorta read through the thread (I skimmed a little, so don't slap me too hard if I missed something)

So the goal is to write a new updated fishless cycling guide?

I can tell you that very few, if any, of the guides that you find on various forums are totally independent. Most glean from one another, and some copy directly. Many forum posters frequent multiple forums, or did in the past, so a lot of information overlaps from one to the other.

The 4ppm thing (I believe) comes from a recommendation by Dr. Hovanec at the one and only site faq.

The big issue I think will be figuring out what actually needs to be changed in a new guide, simple is good. I think that water changes are smart in a stall situation. The reasoning is simple: 1) it's cheap and easy to do. 2) It reduces the concentration of a certain agent that is stalling the cycle (unlikely) 3) It replenishes trace nutrients and even some macros and 4) no harm, no foul. Doing a water change may or may not help anything, but it's not going to hurt anything either.

That said, I'm not a big fan of fishless cycling, and I think fish-in is the best way to go in FW tanks, so I admit I have a bias to the process in general.

Hello jetajockey

I like yourself, prefer to do it fish in. Myself and threnjen have found some interesting things on this topic also. Things you may already know and I would like to ask some questions regarding this. At a later date though I thought your fish in article was excellent and I did send you a pm but you may not have received it.

Anyway, I have not been a member if this site for very long and certainly do not have as much experience as some on here. As I said, I have never done a fishless cycle but there is no denying that there is a pattern emerging on the freshwater getting started thread that is seeing people who we believe to be following the sticky and having problems. Too many in my opinion. So our goal was to try and investigate why people were have problems. Of course in order to do this we had to read ALOT. Our research has taken down many different routes and we have learned some things that there are misconceptions that need addressing. Things that may be common knowledge to the more experienced but are being banded around the forums as truths that could be causing fishless cycling noobs to become frustrated.

We are no down to the possibility of people's tap water not containing enough nutrients to support bacteria growth. A cycle in R/O water as suggested in previous posts could help us understand this more?

Any concerns or ideas would much be appreciated. Our goal is to help people who may be discouraged by this and lead them to abandon altogether. I believe that if people have taken the time to try and understand the nitrogen cycle and the fishless cycle then these are people who are serious about should be encourage to continue, it may not be the guide itself that is causing problems but we feel this is something long overdue that required looking at.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:41 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Ruddy app has crashed twice so this post is short

What causes a stall in your experience?

Low ph/ kh,
High nitrites? +20ppm?
Low phosphate?

A few updates or tweaks to the guide may help as this question seems to get posted a lot (or they don't know what to look for and are jumping the gun)?

What we believe to be true so far is that high levels of nitrite/ammonia at the levels we use in our aquarium do nothing to stall the cycle.

As long as pH remains about 6.5 then the cycle will not stall.

We also are looking in to the possibility of nutrients depletion stalling a cycle but have nothing concrete yet.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:43 AM   #294
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Thanks for the input though delapool. An FAQ from newbies would be a good addition to this thread.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:38 AM   #295
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Edit above 6.5
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:19 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post

The big issue I think will be figuring out what actually needs to be changed in a new guide, simple is good. I think that water changes are smart in a stall situation. The reasoning is simple: 1) it's cheap and easy to do. 2) It reduces the concentration of a certain agent that is stalling the cycle (unlikely) 3) It replenishes trace nutrients and even some macros and 4) no harm, no foul. Doing a water change may or may not help anything, but it's not going to hurt anything either.
I'm going to admit that, in general, I'm getting "ok" with this idea.
BUT - here's my but - I'd like to have a more clear time when this is performed.
For *me*, when "nitrites are unreadable!" is a meh reason.
I think that's why I struggle with the whole water change aspect, because I think it can be so easily skipped with a supply of phosphorous up front.
But it's not so important to me that this issue is a hill to die on Caliban if you are in favor of WC let's go ahead and incorporate it into the plan.
But for the sake of consistency, we should decide EXACTLY where we want it to be performed and provide parameters as such to the participants.

Also if we could keep it to 1 WC that would be nice.

Examples -
The first time the ammonia is depleted from 5ppm to 1ppm
7 days after you see nitrites appear
On day x

(it all seems arbitrary to me which is why my suggestions are arbitrary)
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:37 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by threnjen View Post
I'm going to admit that, in general, I'm getting "ok" with this idea.
BUT - here's my but - I'd like to have a more clear time when this is performed.
For *me*, when "nitrites are unreadable!" is a meh reason.
I think that's why I struggle with the whole water change aspect, because I think it can be so easily skipped with a supply of phosphorous up front.
But it's not so important to me that this issue is a hill to die on Caliban if you are in favor of WC let's go ahead and incorporate it into the plan.
But for the sake of consistency, we should decide EXACTLY where we want it to be performed and provide parameters as such to the participants.

Also if we could keep it to 1 WC that would be nice.

Examples -
The first time the ammonia is depleted from 5ppm to 1ppm
7 days after you see nitrites appear
On day x

(it all seems arbitrary to me which is why my suggestions are arbitrary)
In the spirit of keeping things simple for the newbie I do think a water change is best. I did state that if we were to recommend yhis we should keep it structured. One sounds like it would do it. A re-education of why we are doing this should be enforced. One we can prove this actually is a problem.

It may be that some peoples cycles do not need a water change because there are sufficient nutrients in their tap water to begin with but a water change should not do anything to effect the cycle so why not? Its pointless advocating water changes to peoples whos tap water nutrients are minimal to begin with. Therefore a note in instructions to people with soft water that the addition of X and X should be considered. That is of course if there is a direct corrolation between soft water and depleted nutrients.

Jen can you post a list of your tap water minerals etc so I can compare with my hard tap water please?

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Old 01-06-2014, 02:47 PM   #298
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Would my water quality report suffice to have this information?

http://www.tigard-or.gov/city_hall/d...ity_report.pdf

As far as the gH, my city simply states that we have "1/3-1/2 grains per gallon". I'm not actually sure what ppm that means as I've never seen anyone state a ppm in anything but liters.
This would be .132ppm hardness, if I convert the gallons to liters.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:22 PM   #299
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A grain is an old unit of mass based on the average mass of one grain of wheat. The only place I think it's still used regularly is in firearms when referring to the amount of gunpowder in a bullet. For our purposes, 1 grain/gal is roughly 17 ppm or 1 dGH.




You still haven't determined what specifically you're testing. Hard water vs soft water? You need to control for everything else not being tested.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:42 PM   #300
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A grain is an old unit of mass based on the average mass of one grain of wheat. The only place I think it's still used regularly is in firearms when referring to the amount of gunpowder in a bullet. For our purposes, 1 grain/gal is roughly 17 ppm or 1 dGH.
Aha!! Thanks, I did not know this. Why on earth is my city using such an antiquated phrasing? Or is this standard. Not that it matters.


Quote:
You still haven't determined what specifically you're testing. Hard water vs soft water? You need to control for everything else not being tested.
I think we want to keep all parameters equal and simply study the effect of different tap water sources on the length of the cycle.

As a control test, I'm also going to perform two cycles using RO water + phosphorous and RO water + Equilibrium.

The question we want to answer, which needs to be phrased better, is how important is the source water itself to the cycle?
I'm hoping we'll be able to obtain water quality reports from all participants.

So in the end we're basically (almost) just going to have people cycle as usual, except with a more strict and rigid dosing/parameters plan than they might normally use, with very clear instructions.
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