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Old 01-06-2014, 06:22 PM   #301
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Aha!! Thanks, I did not know this. Why on earth is my city using such an antiquated phrasing? Or is this standard. Not that it matters.



I think we want to keep all parameters equal and simply study the effect of different tap water sources on the length of the cycle.

As a control test, I'm also going to perform two cycles using RO water + phosphorous and RO water + Equilibrium.

The question we want to answer, which needs to be phrased better, is how important is the source water itself to the cycle?
I'm hoping we'll be able to obtain water quality reports from all participants.

So in the end we're basically (almost) just going to have people cycle as usual, except with a more strict and rigid dosing/parameters plan than they might normally use, with very clear instructions.
I think you'd be better having one bucket just phosphate and one bucket equilibrium and phosphate. If they both cycle equally then we can assume phosphate is the key. If not then we know equilibrium is important.

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Old 01-06-2014, 06:36 PM   #302
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Ok my water is actually very soft also. Made a mistake. Im just thinking. Most people who have stalled lately have had quite normal ph.

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Old 01-06-2014, 06:38 PM   #303
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I think you'd be better having one bucket just phosphate and one bucket equilibrium and phosphate. If they both cycle equally then we can assume phosphate is the key. If not then we know equilibrium is important.

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yes sorry, just a mis type on my part. Both with phosphors
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:00 PM   #304
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Questions for molliwop

I know you have been doing fishless for ever I guess and you claim you have never had any problems so we would like to ask you some questions.

Are you aware of the forums fishless cycle instructions and did/do you use them to cycle? If not what are is your method? Please consider these questions

If you followed the instructions but changed parts what did you change?

Do you have soft or hard water?

How long does your average cycle take?

How often do you test your water?

How often do you dose ammonia?

Do you change water? If so what is the reason for this?

Do you add anything other than ammonia to the cycle?

Do you have any specific enviromental preferneces such as temp, lighting?

How do you aerate the water?

Any other questions please add.

Thanks Molli

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Old 01-06-2014, 07:14 PM   #305
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I think we want to keep all parameters equal and simply study the effect of different tap water sources on the length of the cycle.

As a control test, I'm also going to perform two cycles using RO water + phosphorous and RO water + Equilibrium.

The question we want to answer, which needs to be phrased better, is how important is the source water itself to the cycle?
I'm hoping we'll be able to obtain water quality reports from all participants.

So in the end we're basically (almost) just going to have people cycle as usual, except with a more strict and rigid dosing/parameters plan than they might normally use, with very clear instructions.
I don't know if I'm just being daft, but I'm still not clear what your independent variable is here. Source water isn't a variable per se. What I'm looking for is a quantifiable (or qualifiable) variable that will be manipulated, eg, low pH vs high pH, high mineral content vs low (as defined by dGH), phosphate rich vs phosphate poor, etc.

You second problem will be controlling the other variables. If you have someone who has 'hard water' (high pH, high KH, high GH) and try to compare it to someone who has 'soft water' (low/neutral pH, low KH, low GH), you can't really draw any conclusions. If the hard water case cycled faster (or didn't stall), then do you attribute it to pH? GH? Unfortunately, the two are usually cofounded pretty heavily in tap water.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:05 AM   #306
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I don't know if I'm just being daft, but I'm still not clear what your independent variable is here. Source water isn't a variable per se. What I'm looking for is a quantifiable (or qualifiable) variable that will be manipulated, eg, low pH vs high pH, high mineral content vs low (as defined by dGH), phosphate rich vs phosphate poor, etc.

You second problem will be controlling the other variables. If you have someone who has 'hard water' (high pH, high KH, high GH) and try to compare it to someone who has 'soft water' (low/neutral pH, low KH, low GH), you can't really draw any conclusions. If the hard water case cycled faster (or didn't stall), then do you attribute it to pH? GH? Unfortunately, the two are usually cofounded pretty heavily in tap water.
I don't know. What do you suggest then?
I think you think we're trying to get more out of it than we expect to. It's not all that scientific of an experiment. I agree that differences in tap water we wouldn't be able to attribute it to much specific, but at least we could blame differences in tap water.
We're hoping to make phosphorus and pH a controlled constraint rather than a variable. If we enforce the use of baking soda then it will become a further controlled constraint as that will raise everyone's pH and .. gH is it that it also raises?
I think that is reducing some variables, is it not?
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:17 AM   #307
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I don't know if I'm just being daft, but I'm still not clear what your independent variable is here. Source water isn't a variable per se. What I'm looking for is a quantifiable (or qualifiable) variable that will be manipulated, eg, low pH vs high pH, high mineral content vs low (as defined by dGH), phosphate rich vs phosphate poor, etc.



You second problem will be controlling the other variables. If you have someone who has 'hard water' (high pH, high KH, high GH) and try to compare it to someone who has 'soft water' (low/neutral pH, low KH, low GH), you can't really draw any conclusions. If the hard water case cycled faster (or didn't stall), then do you attribute it to pH? GH? Unfortunately, the two are usually cofounded pretty heavily in tap water.

What's wrong with running experiments between people with soft water vs hard water? If there is an obvious difference in cycling outcome then we go on to it further to investigate why. If we run hard vs soft and there is no obvious difference then there is less of a need go into water types etc.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:30 AM   #308
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Another thing to consider. The 4ppm ammonia dosing recommendation is also based on the idea that the average full fish load produces near that amount on a daily basis. Or that it's 'creating a strong biofilter', which makes no sense since the bacteria colony is dynamic and grows/shrinks according to it's available resources and situation.

As far as I can tell, the 4ppm thing is complete speculation. I believe that they produce much less than this on average, but I've only tested it a few times on a whim when setting up a completely new tank. It'd be a pretty easy thing to test, though, if you had the patience for it.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:59 AM   #309
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I wanted to throw something back out there about water changes (I KNOW I am so annoying about this! I can't help myself)
But if we let people do water changes then we can't disprove (OR PROVE, OK) that high nitrites stall the cycle

P.S. caliban your box is full, try harder :P
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:00 AM   #310
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Another thing to consider. The 4ppm ammonia dosing recommendation is also based on the idea that the average full fish load produces near that amount on a daily basis. Or that it's 'creating a strong biofilter', which makes no sense since the bacteria colony is dynamic and grows/shrinks according to it's available resources and situation.

As far as I can tell, the 4ppm thing is complete speculation. I believe that they produce much less than this on average, but I've only tested it a few times on a whim when setting up a completely new tank. It'd be a pretty easy thing to test, though, if you had the patience for it.
We want to go a smidge higher because we want to dispel the oft-held notion that high ammonia or nitrites will stall the cycle.

Or maybe we'll prove that science was wrong (or too perfect) and in our circumstances it does (I don't know why that would be, I just want to sound unbiased)
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