Post your test data

[sixtyfou]

Let me restate that. My water is consistent and stable. I know what I'm going to get. It's highly treated.

 

[sixtyfou]

This is the part were I state the ugly real world truth.

You can start a 20 gallon tank with chem, a cup of gravel, a Danio, and add a couple of Tetras 7 days later, add a couple of fish a week from there. It works fine and nothing dies.

 

[Caliban07]

How does the tank ever cycle if you don't get any ammonia readings?
I'm not arguing, I am simply curious how this could work.

Of course you do get ammonia from the fish but if the body of water they are in is vast enough to dilute ammonia whilst the bacteria get to work then you should in theory have a steady input output. Everything you do though will affect the ammonia output so I feed every other day. After 2 weeks I add my next lot of fish.

The bacteria this way is never overwhelmed and the fish are not exposed to high levels of ammonia.

I think efficiency is key. If I was to do a fishless cycle I would add as much filter media, plants, ornaments as I could fit in to give more surface area. I would then dose 0.5ppm ammonia and continue to do this until I have a cycle at that level. Then when I had a complete cycle at 0.5ppm I would start to increase dosing by 0.5ppm till I reached my desired target. I also wouldn't add ammonia until it had been processed.

I think the instructions for the fishless cycle need looking at definitely as I believe dosing 4ppm to a tank with no bacteria is asking for trouble. You get nothing for ages then bam! I massive reading of nitrites all at once.

This is just my opinion. And with the utmost respect Jen. It seems you are losing track of your experiment already lol. It's so easy to lose track. Just add fish I say.

 

[threnjen]

This is the part were I state the ugly real world truth.

You can start a 20 gallon tank with chem, a cup of gravel, a Danio, and add a couple of Tetras 7 days later, add a couple of fish a week from there. It works fine and nothing dies.

Cycled gravel? Well sure, seeding will always mean success!
I'm not sure what's so ugly about this

I hope we're not arguing, I am finding this discussion intensely interesting. I'm also learning some things.

 

[threnjen]

I think the instructions for the fishless cycle need looking at definitely as I believe dosing 4ppm to a tank with no bacteria is asking for trouble. You get nothing for ages then bam! I massive reading of nitrites all at once.

But I challenge you - so what? What's the big deal if there are massive nitrites?
The forum where I learned fishless cycling doesn't make a big deal about off-the-chart ammonia OR nitrites the way this forum does. The ammonia in my bucket is currently about 20ppm and the cycle is moving.

This is just my opinion. And with the utmost respect Jen. It seems you are losing track of your experiment already lol. It's so easy to lose track. Just add fish I say.

It's a bucket, I'm not adding any fish It's a science experiment!
I do want some of the media for my hospital tank though which is uncycled.
So, I'm going to throw out there, I actually AM fish-in cycling. It's just against my will.
I seeded it (the hospital tank, not the bucket) with some media but I think the filter itself is too sucky or something, I never have any nitrite or nitrate and always high ammonia. Last night I took out the sponge I had stuffed in there and just put bio-balls from the main tank in the HOB instead. The prefilter sponge can take care of the mechanical part. So I'm hoping it will actually be cycled soon.

 

[sixtyfou]

This thread needs to be broken out,

I am really curious about the work thejen is doing. I want to see that data. I'd like to add to that data.

Seeding a tank takes away from that lab work.

 

[Caliban07]

But I challenge you - so what? What's the big deal if there are massive nitrites?
The forum where I learned fishless cycling doesn't make a big deal about off-the-chart ammonia OR nitrites the way this forum does. The ammonia in my bucket is currently about 20ppm and the cycle is moving.

I didn't say it was a big deal. But it is confusing to newbies. I've read tons where people have had to do 2 90% water changes just to bring down to a readable level. Even after processing the nitrites you're still going to end up with huge nitrates and have to do massive water changes. I personally don't believe the cycle with stall and crash. But it's bound to go slower.

The bottom line is whether it should or shouldn't be, it IS causing problems to newbies. If you can. I would do another experiment after this one. Chuck the water and scrub the bucket, get a new sponge. Add 0.5ppm ammonia and wait until it is processed right the way through to nitrates. Then add 1 ppm and wait again then 2 wait then 3. See how long it takes.

I would do it but can't get ammonia

 

[threnjen]

If you can. I would do another experiment after this one. Chuck the water and scrub the bucket, get a new sponge. Add 0.5ppm ammonia and wait until it is processed right the way through to nitrates. Then add 1 ppm and wait again then 2 wait then 3. See how long it takes.

We shall see - if I have the time, I will accept this challenge!

Actually I'm now envisioning a challenge where I cycle two buckets simultaneously with the same 2 filters, but doing one with low ammonia dosing (the way you want to see it) and one the way I was taught (crazy style dosing, crazier than this forum teaches)

I would have to buy at least one more filter though and another heater, so we'll see

Overall I really want some research that will make fishless cycling less confusing for the newbies. Because I agree it does seem confusing to a lot of people.

 

[sixtyfou]

LOL, I love you nerds.

 

[threnjen]

Bahahah when I set up the bucket my husband was like "why are you doing this???" I was like, "I dunno I just want to see what happens..."

 

[sixtyfou]

I told my girlfriend "IT'S FOR SCIENCE"

 

[threnjen]

So say we all

 

[Caliban07]

We shall see - if I have the time, I will accept this challenge!

Actually I'm now envisioning a challenge where I cycle two buckets simultaneously with the same 2 filters, but doing one with low ammonia dosing (the way you want to see it) and one the way I was taught (crazy style dosing, crazier than this forum teaches)

I would have to buy at least one more filter though and another heater, so we'll see

Overall I really want some research that will make fishless cycling less confusing for the newbies. Because I agree it does seem confusing to a lot of people.

I do hope to get some results that's make this less confusing but I really can't see you being the only person to have tried this

What I believe is that by dosing crazy high ammonia the first bacteria will out compete the second bacteria for surface area. The second bacterias reproduction rate is also much slower and this is one of the reasons why you get off the chart nitrites, because it is taking them longer to reproduce with limited space, especially in a bucket

Don't overwhelm the bacteria. Of course they will process it, it's nature, but strange readings and frustrated newbies is bound to be a secondary effect.

 

[sixtyfou]

Nothing but the rain Sir.

 

[threnjen]

I do hope to get some results that's make this less confusing but I really can't see you being the only person to have tried this

Hmm. Maybe. But then why isn't anyone ever talking about it?

What I believe is that by dosing crazy high ammonia the first bacteria will out compete the second bacteria for surface area. The second bacterias reproduction rate is also much slower and this is one of the reasons why you get off the chart nitrites, because it is taking them longer to reproduce with limited space, especially in a bucket

Hmm an interesting and reasonable theory

 

[sixtyfou]

Bring in the cat.

 

[Caliban07]

Hmm. Maybe. But then why isn't anyone ever talking about it?

I don't know how long fishless cycling has been around to be honest. I guess we should question where 4ppm ammonia came from in the first place. I guess it's because it's higher than what a typical stocking of fish would produce.


Hmm an interesting and reasonable theory

It is a theory, but I am not a scientist. Has anyone ever actually studied these bacteria properly hello scientists?

 

[threnjen]

It is a theory, but I am not a scientist. Has anyone ever actually studied these bacteria properly hello scientists?

This is one of the more in-depth articles I have found about the specific bacteria used in the nitrifying process
Nitrifying Bacteria Facts
Ultimately that site is to hawk their bacterial additive, but the info is great

 

[threnjen]

Bring in the cat.

Is this one a BSG quote or are you just saying random stuff now

 

[threnjen]

I wonder if baking soda should be a part of the fishless cycling plan, to keep pH really high, because growth is improved with that (and a pH crash can really mess people up)

But then, that's just another thing to make cycling confusing.