Post your test data

[Mebbid]

It is a theory, but I am not a scientist. Has anyone ever actually studied these bacteria properly hello scientists?

I saw an interview of Dr tims creator about his bottled bacteria. He basically stated that most bottled bacteria is the type that comes from waste treatment plants which is more suited to live in super high nutrient environments where ammonia and nitrite is off the charts rather than our low nutrient systems. This is apparently why a lot of people have issues using bottled bacteria.

It could also signal issues when hyper saturating your water with ammonia allowing the other kind to grow.

 

[Caliban07]

I saw an interview of Dr tims creator about his bottled bacteria. He basically stated that most bottled bacteria is the type that comes from waste treatment plants which is more suited to live in super high nutrient environments where ammonia and nitrite is off the charts rather than our low nutrient systems. This is apparently why a lot of people have issues using bottled bacteria.

It could also signal issues when hyper saturating your water with ammonia allowing the other kind to grow.

Yes I have heard about this too. I was taking about regularly aquarium bacteria though. How do we not know there characteristics inside out. Or is it just that we are not important to scientists lol

 

[Delapool]

But I challenge you - so what? What's the big deal if there are massive nitrites?
The forum where I learned fishless cycling doesn't make a big deal about off-the-chart ammonia OR nitrites the way this forum does. The ammonia in my bucket is currently about 20ppm and the cycle is moving.

.

Wow that's amazing, highest I'd heard of is 10ppm. I'd be really interested if you have ph and kH readings for this?

 

[threnjen]

Today's test results:

pH 7.2
NitrItes still off the charts (this will be the case for a while now)
NitrAtes coming in! About 30ppm right now. Actually it's too bad I didn't check yesterday, I would have had a reading I bet

Delapool my water is ridiculously soft and my kH is 0, my main tank I have to add a lot of stuff to get a buffer.

 

[threnjen]

Wow that's amazing, highest I'd heard of is 10ppm.

I am quite determined to prove that we are overly concerned with specific numbers. But we shall see.
The problem is I can only prove anything for MY water conditions, know what I mean?

For the experiment to truly work, we need to round up interested parties with different source water types. Maybe I should make a new post about this.

 

[Caliban07]

I am quite determined to prove that we are overly concerned with specific numbers. But we shall see.
The problem is I can only prove anything for MY water conditions, know what I mean?

For the experiment to truly work, we need to round up interested parties with different source water types. Maybe I should make a new post about this.

We can control all the variables though to create the same test? Except trace minerals etc.

I would love to start a a bucket but getting hold of pure ammonia is really tough.

Sent from my SM-T210 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[threnjen]

Hmm I guess I could simulate a harder water source, but the pH would go up as well.
Could be worse; if I had hard water I could never simulate soft water unless I bought some RO water.

Husband was NOT excited for me to go buy tanks at the petco sale, so I might be stuck using buckets. Remember I only have 2 identical filters, so we will need to decide by then the exact conditions I want to create. i.e. do we want to have different source water but same dosing conditions, or same source water but different dosing conditions (as we had discussed earlier)

 

[Caliban07]

Hmm I guess I could simulate a harder water source, but the pH would go up as well.
Could be worse; if I had hard water I could never simulate soft water unless I bought some RO water.

Husband was NOT excited for me to go buy tanks at the petco sale, so I might be stuck using buckets. Remember I only have 2 identical filters, so we will need to decide by then the exact conditions I want to create. i.e. do we want to have different source water but same dosing conditions, or same source water but different dosing conditions (as we had discussed earlier)

We want to increase pH to the optimum level as discribed in that link no? I guess you would have to play around with amount of crushed coral or limestone to achieve the required level. How hard is your water? If it has a relativly good buffering capacity then there would be no need to mess with it. Once ph is attained it would have to be maintained which would be difficult. Then it would have to be slightly reduced as the second bacteria starts to colonise. Temps would have to remain constant throughout at the optimum temp as described in the link. I would personally concerntrate on one test at a time and record results ie how long it has taken to bring 4ppm from 4ppm 0ppm in 24 hours and having 0 nitrites and a a reading of nitrates.

I read another interesting article today that claimed nitrospira strain goes dormant in high volumes of ammonia. Ill see if I can find the link.

Sent from my SM-T210 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[threnjen]

How hard is your water? If it has a relativly good buffering capacity then there would be no need to mess with it.

Softest water possible practically. As per our own water quality website "surface water of [my region] is some of the softest in the [US]" "1/3-1/2 grains of hardness per gallon" I don't know what ppm that means, but I imagine almost nothing.
As a result I have no kH and no buffering capacity. I have to add stuff in my main tank to retain consistency.

I read another interesting article today that claimed nitrospira strain goes dormant in high volumes of ammonia. Ill see if I can find the link.

YES link please!! This is just the sort of stuff I want to see!

 

[threnjen]

I need access to these articles somehow
A targeted study on possible free ammonia inhibition of Nitrospira - ResearchGate

My husband has been a part of published papers so I will have to see if he qualifies to access this site

Abstract from that paper:
"Batch tests were carried out with Nitrospira in mixed and pure cultures using concentrations of free ammonia widely believed to be inhibitory to nitrite-oxidizing organisms. The mixed culture batch tests were conducted with mixed liquor from a bench scale completely stirred tank reactor (CSTR) treating a synthetic wastewater having a low C:N ratio. Nitrospira were confirmed as the dominant nitrite oxidizers via RNA slot blotting. Nitrospira moscoviensis were used for the pure culture trials. The results from this study suggest that free ammonia (NH3-N) concentrations of up to 10 mg/L were not inhibitory to Nitrospira either in situ or in pure culture. Key words: fatty acid methyl esters, free ammonia inhibition, molecular methods, nitrification, nitrite, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, nitrous acid, nitrous oxide, RNA slot blotting, wastewater treatment."

 

[threnjen]

Here is a microbiology article about bacteria in aquaria
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

Haven't even read it yet.

Here is another paper which in the abstract mentions research on nitrifying inhibition
http://ftp.mpi-bremen.de/pub/moleco.../Gieseke_EM2003.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Still need to read this one too. I will do that now, wish me luck. The content is a little dry

 

[threnjen]

Ugh ultimately I am not a scientist and these papers are difficult for me to follow.

 

[threnjen]

OK I just got to the part of the second paper that I posted, where it discusses inhibition.
Unfortunately C&P is not working to get it over here so let me try and summarize.

High concentrations of Free Ammonia (FA) can hamper activity and growth of nitrifying bacteria. Concentrations of 10-150 mg FA 1^-1 were reported to be inhibitory to Nitrosomas whereas .1-1.0 mg FA 1^-1 was found to inhibit Nitrobacter.

Citation: http://ftp.mpi-bremen.de/pub/moleco.../Gieseke_EM2003.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Page 9


OK so does anyone know what the concentrations numbers mean? Are those numbers representative of concentrations, or do we need to know the total water in the system tested? What the heck does the FA 1^-1 mean?
WTB biologist

 

[Delapool]

Today's test results:

pH 7.2
NitrItes still off the charts (this will be the case for a while now)
NitrAtes coming in! About 30ppm right now. Actually it's too bad I didn't check yesterday, I would have had a reading I bet

Delapool my water is ridiculously soft and my kH is 0, my main tank I have to add a lot of stuff to get a buffer.

I have wondered if a very low kH will also slow the process down. The article below mentions a little on what it calls adequate buffering levels.

http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com/docs/WPC_Nitrification & Denitrification .pdf

 

[threnjen]

Loss of Ammonia Monooxygenase Activity in Nitrosomonas europaea upon Exposure to Nitrite
Another one to read. This one is about the toxicity of nitrite to nitrosomonas, but I see it discussing inhibition etc

 

[threnjen]

I have wondered if a very low kH will also slow the process down. The article below mentions a little on what it calls adequate buffering levels.

http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com/docs/WPC_Nitrification & Denitrification .pdf

Good article thanks!!

I see the part about buffering but in the context of the article, it seems to be more related to keeping the pH over 6.5 which is something we can manually do in aquaria via baking soda, coral etc.
I read it as: have an adequate buffer so that the pH cannot drop below 6.5
As long as my pH doesn't drop below this, there should be no requirement for a buffer.

An interesting hypothesis but I don't think that kH actually does anything in relation to the process, besides keeping the pH stable (and, more accurately, not even stable but ABOVE 6.5) , which is something that we can monitor ourselves

It does mean that someone with soft water and no buffers will need to be more vigilant when cycling. When I cycled my 90, I actually DID have a pH crash and a cycle stall because I didn't know about this stuff.

 

[Caliban07]

Hmm there are too many articles to read tonight but I'm glad we're finally getting to see actual scientific tests and that scientists do care what goes on in the everyday aquarium.

From what I read in that article is the high concentrations of ammonia does not inhibit nitrospira growth.

I don't know if we can control our tests as well as these people in the labs lol

 

[threnjen]

I know, but if we can gather enough information, we can at LEAST either confirm or deny the "too high ammonia is bad! too high nitrite is bad!" thing that goes around and demands lots of water changes during a fishless cycle.
I've found even MORE articles. I am definitely on the right track. Unfortunately, my brain is going into a kind of overload. I think I need to look over these articles one by one, take notes elsewhere (instead of brain dumping here) and then come back and post some summaries of the relevant information I've culled.

I've just read some really interesting stuff that I think you might be interested in because of our conversation yesterday where you posited that "if you grow too much nitrosonomas[ammonia eating], there isn't room for the nitrobacter[nitrite eating] to grow". This current paper I'm looking at implies that nitrite itself is inhibitory to the growth of nitrosonomas, which would mean that as soon as the nitrobacter starts to grow, the nitrosonomas STOPS growing. Basically implying there should be "room enough for everyone"
... you following all this?

My brain is turning to mush. I need to go play a video game or something and take a break from this lol

 

[Delapool]

Interesting stuff, I might have to read these on the larger computer screen when back home in a day, little bit painful on the small iPhone screen.

 

[Caliban07]

But that would blow my theory out of the water and I'm not ready for that. Please link all these articles for me

I still think the low dosing will be the quickest cycle, it has to be!