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Old 08-04-2004, 12:13 AM   #11
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"You know, no matter who is president, someone will find something wrong with them... I know some people like the current president, and some don't... like any other president, those who don't like him, really don't like him. I can't stand that part of politics... Always focusing on the negative." - mullipede

I very much agree and that is why I chose to use "administration" as opposed to blaming just Bush. All these democrats talk crap about Bush in Iraq, but they were the same people who supported Clinton in Kosovo. As far as voting just to get Bush out of office, I think that is a stupid idea as well. Why? Because if Kerry won, then all we'd be doing after the next four years would be trying to vote Kerry out of office. It just becomes a cycle. Besides, every time Kerry opens his mouth he sounds more and more like a Republican on issues that use to be the key dividing points between the parties. Politics = BLAH!

I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry if my ramblings annoyed anyone.
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Old 08-04-2004, 02:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by shawmutt
I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but I find it odd that we need to always be fighting some expensive, lucrative (for big business) war against some huge, unbeatable enemy. I mean, let's get real--"War on Terror?" When is the "wall" coming down on that one? One people's terrorist is another people's freedom fighter. The 3,000 people lost at the WTC was a horrible, horrible event--but so is losing our children overseas and 10,000 Iraqi and Afganis dying in this "War on Terror."
You really believe this? Is 911 that distant of a memory for you? If we all had this attitiude, then we would loose for sure.
Unbeatable? The Germans were supposed to be unbeatable. This is probably the most important war we have ever been involved in. We MUST win this one. These people celebrate the death of any american including you or anyone in your family. They can and will travel the globe highly undetected to carry out their deeds. There are 100,000+ militants in the world who would love to have the glory of being the one(s) to carries out the next 911.
What do you propose we do, have an ice cream social with them? Do nothing? Sorry friend, it won't work.
These people since 911 have changed the course of an election(Spain), attempted to change several countries policies by beheading their citizens in front of a world audience. Daily roadside bombings (those are not good Iraqi citizens) and the list goes on. Terror is continuing.
Freedom fighters? Not a good term in this case. These groups rule by terror and oppression of their own people. The citizens that reside in these coutries live in fear.
This war in Iraq goes way beyond the "liberating of the Iraqi people". Because of this invasion, we are able to get many more intelligence officers into the region, hell we can just fly them into Bagdad. We are also bringing the enemy to us. Much better to fight them when they are right in front of us than relying on satellite photo's. We now have Iran surrounded and are in Syria's backyard. Don't think that doesn't make them squirm a bit. Our inspectors are also now in Libia, who would have thought that would ever have happened.
This is just the start to the war on terror. it is going to last for many more years and we will win (with the right administration). Its about time we got focused on this problem and we need to remain focused.
As for the alert levels, they may seem silly now, but when an attack is thwarted they won't seem so silly then.
BTW, I am a Navy Vet and served in Desert Storm. Out military is a voluntary one, they know what they are getting into. I'm sure most of them don't appreciate being called children.
Sorry for the forceful rant, if I get banned for it, so be it.
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:03 AM   #13
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well there is some truth to the whole freedomfighter thing mentioned... those people that are pulling off those attacks actually believe that we are all evil... some of that is based on facts that they've heard, very little fact but some, but most of it is something that has been etched into their brains. There are many things that all of us here think, do, say, believe etc... because it's almost been programmed into us... I know, a lot of people aren't going to agree with me on that, but that's ok... I don't mind a rant here and there and hearing other people's views... I think as long as none of us make it personal in any way. This is quite a community we have here... we're all very different, heck, after reading some things like the "name ten things we don't know about you" topic, I think some of you are quite odd... but that's ok... When we're all here gathered together for the unified purpose of helping each other and sharing, even about something as simple as fish, then we're really all friends here. I believe that most of us care about each other and I think it's possible to disagree with each other at the same time. This is a touchy subject for some people and I think extra care should be taken when posting... We all have our rights to our own views and some people here love to discuss things like that... some people like debates... I can't stand them... I think as long as it doesn't turn into quarriling or name calling and such then things will be good... anyway, just a few thoughts... I always have a few...
I couldn't find the article I wanted to that listed the shortcomings of many of our past leaders but I can assure you it was quite an interesting comparison... If anyone is interested I could probably email the newspaper to track it down. Some of the Kerry supporters and democrats here might now like this article, but I thought it was kind of funny(not in a bad joke way). It illustrates exactly what I was saying earlier about how when we focus on bad things we often miss some really good truths. http://www.nwanews.com/leader/story_...rydb=hlstories I could campaign that cheese is the #1 cause of pimples(had to think of something) and get a few political leaders or actors or even some doctors to agree with me and come up with some sort of study and I could probably come up with enough info that a lot of people would believe me... not everyone, but enough... that sure wouldn't make it true though would it... So many grade school teachers and beyond have told me and many other kids that daddy long legs are the most poisonous spider on earth... there are even websites that say this... but there is no fact to it... there is no proof. But I spent a good portion of my life believing it and even telling other people the same thing... Anyway, I'm rambling again... I like to ramble I guess, now and then... I hope you all don't mind toooooo much.
"Out military is a voluntary one, they know what they are getting into" amen... We've fought a few wars already that not everyone agreed with... when you sign up for the military you take that risk. I know there are more than a few Iraqis that don't like us... but anytime I think about a world without Saddaam and see some of those iraqis smiling without fear I realize that the soldiers we have lost were not lost in vain... And I do not say that with any lack of resect for those men and women or their families. I honestly believe that the majority of soldiers that have laid down their lives would not believe it was in vain either. They are defending our freedoms every day and I'm proud of them.
And alert colors... I know most people don't want to think about "conspiracy theories" or think they are all crazy... try to look up what will happen if the alert ever had to go to red... let's pray it never happens in our lifetime...
Quarry, I doubt you'd get banned... the administration here is pretty understanding and gives some good warnings before that sort of thing happens, most of the time... and we may not need an ice cream social with terrorists but I'm hungry... when's our ice cream social? hm? when? I'm hungry... I try to keep my replies short... I don't know what happens...
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
You really believe this?
Wholeheartedly. When most countries, including our nearest neighbors, turn their backs on us when we decide a course of action it's time to take an objective step back and say, "is this really the right thing to do?" Consider this, both Iraq and Afganistan were supplied weapons from the U.S.--what does that say?

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Is 911 that distant of a memory for you?
No. 9/11 knocked one stop off of my delivery route. Thankfully the place I delivered stuff to was on the first floor down and all the employees got out safely that day.

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We MUST win this one.
When do "we" win? After we beat Iraq and every other middle eastern country, and then take on most of Asia and Africa? Not going to happen. "Terrorists" are everywhere. Furthermore, the war on terror and the war Iraq are two different things. Time and time again a link between Al Queda and Iraq has been disproved. Iraq had no WMD (unlike the US who has stockpiles and has used them--think Hiroshima and Nagasaki). The US was misled to believe Saddam Hussien and his regime posed an immenent threat to the US. This has been disproved. So the Bush administration put another spin on the Iraq war--they did it for the people of Iraq. Well, Iraqis get $160 Billion dollars to kill us.

Quote:
These groups rule by terror and oppression of their own people.
Kind of like a Terror-alert system and the Patriot Act? Just because D.C. isn't lobbing off extremities doesn't mean it's OK.

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Out military is a voluntary one, they know what they are getting into.
Most people "volunteer" for the military because they are too poor to do otherwise. For a lot of people the military is the only way to go to college--which is a sad state of affairs. Just think, each bomb we drop can put a person through college.

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I'm sure most of them don't appreciate being called children.
I don't care what the law says--when I was 18 I was not an adult yet. To ask a teenager to die is a tremendous thing to ask--whether they like being called children or not.

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Sorry for the forceful rant, if I get banned for it, so be it.
I don't think it's forceful, everyone's entitled to their opinions. , a person really can't talk about this face-to-face without getting into screaming matches with someone. Emotions run really deep on this topic for some people. However just like I won't convice you that we are going down the wrong path, you'll have a hard time convincing me that the US against the world is a good way to go.

Quote:
What do you propose we do, have an ice cream social with them?
And this is the important question. I'll tell you what I don't think we should be doing. Going commando on the middle east and not really having a plan on what to do. The Iraq we conquered in days will take years to calm down (if it ever does). Do you really think we can just hop from country to country, laying waste as we go? Do you think there won't be any kind of retaliation? Why did Bin Laden attack us?

phew--as you can tell, I've been thinking a lot about this topic, sorry it's so long winded.
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:54 AM   #15
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I believe that terror alerts are in a way oxymoronic. I happen to wonder if terorists get a satisfaction from watching us go from yellow to orange and then red- back down, and up all over again. I think "terror alerts" (beginning to despise that word) may indeed be more of a problem for us right now. Looking back on how many there have been, and how many meant nothing, it does lend to kind of the boy who cried wolf scenario. Obviously I'm a civilian who doesn't know everything about the government's ways of intelligence... but I do wonder, if they've been able to prevent such attacks from happening again during these "orange alerts" and so on, then why cause alarm? Perhaps the alerts should be limited to cases that are terribly worrisome.
Most of the time I don't even notice when we're having another alert. And quite frankly they don't bother me when I do know of them. It's become routine. And that's dangerous- it causes the alerts to lose the very effectiveness and caution they were meant for.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:26 AM   #16
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I believe the terror alerts are partly there for the terrorists. It can be disheartening to know your target is alert and I'm sure it has them questioning the "loyalties" of people in their own ranks.

To think that we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for any other reason other than national security seems very misguided to me. It is true that we supplied weapons to both of those govts in the past, but at the time we were more concerned with Soviet expansion and Iranian militantism than we were with Saddam or the taliban. It's easy to have 20/20 hindsight. Please try and remember that this all took place in both the Carter and Reagan administrations.

How do we win the war on terrorism? Not by knuckling under or ignoring the threat. That's for sure. This conflict is religious and it's been going on for centuries. Regimes in the middle east are tenuous at best and very dangerous. However, we do need their assistance. One only has to look at the policies of govts like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and even Libya to see that what we're doing is having a more positive than negative effect in the region.

The first priority for any US President is our national security. You may not like the way GW delivers his message, or agree with his use of our military might, but it's hard to doubt the severity of the threat.
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:40 AM   #17
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Amen Brian.
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Old 08-04-2004, 10:22 AM   #18
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Don't you just love when you type a whole message out and your computer crashes? **** you Bill Gates!!! It was probably for the best.

In all honesty, before this topic came up, I was in a media fast. It's hard, the media is everywhere, and I was getting snippets here and there. I found I have been addicted (more than usual) to news since 9/11, and believe it or not my health has been failing for it. I didn't think so, but after two weeks of no news I feel much better--and you know what? I feel like crap again. I'm surfing the net, trying to find articles to back my case, etc., and I'm starting to get that all-too-familiar cloud of dread and fatalism over my head again. It's not worth it--IME if the news is important enough I'll hear about it anyway. I don't mean any disrespect or anything, but I find I have to let this topic go again and go back to my peaceful bliss of media ignorance. Deep breath--smile--ahhh...Ok, now it's time to change my sig.

I'm going to move my fish over to my 10 gallon today and hope my stuff comes for my planted tank--and relax. Sorry I'm whimping out on the debate!
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Old 08-04-2004, 10:37 AM   #19
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before this topic came up, I was in a media fast
I have been on a 99% media fast for several years now. It is agonizing to sit through the local news anymore. I can't stand reading the local paper.


Quote:
I'm surfing the net, trying to find articles to back my case, etc., and I'm starting to get that all-too-familiar cloud of dread and fatalism over my head again. It's not worth it--IME if the news is important enough I'll hear about it anyway
I agree. The major media has an agenda and the little guys (local news) get their feeds from the big guys. So it's all the same handpicked, spoon fed crap unless you look for an offbeat, relatively spinless news source that you have to get an expensive subscription to. Part of the agenda of major media includes fearmongering and disease mongering.
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:21 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by snapcrackler

I agree. The major media has an agenda and the little guys (local news) get their feeds from the big guys. So it's all the same handpicked, spoon fed crap unless you look for an offbeat, relatively spinless news source that you have to get an expensive subscription to. Part of the agenda of major media includes fearmongering and disease mongering.
This I agree with...totally.

I would love to respond to the response to my post but quite frankly, I have too much to do. It also make me tired just thinking about it.
Peace! 8)
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