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Old 08-04-2004, 04:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by rubysoho
the problem is that voting for the "next best thing" without really checking out the facts is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go about it.
I kind of recall that frame of mind is what put us in the position we're in today. I remember a lot of people voted for Nader the last time around to avoid choosing between "the lesser of two evils" (myself included). Which in turn allowed the supreme court to SELECT the next president.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:16 PM   #32
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poikilotherm, you couldn't be more right...the entire system is flawed

I still can't believe that there wasn't any election reform after the 2000 election. Millions of more votes yet you lose? That's wrong. The electoral college is so out dated.

I think the founding fathers must be rolling over in there graves with regard to the political system as it is today. I don't think they had career politicians in mind when they envisioned the system. I don't think they had a 2 party system in mind either, but like you said when the two parties make the laws that limit any more competition its almost impossible to change it
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:25 PM   #33
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that instant runoff system sounds great... too bad it probably won't happen anytime soon. oh well...

also, I think the problem we have when trying to decide on what else could have been an appropriate action towards the war on terror comes from our violent history. I think we ought to look to Canada for some answers (even though they are always made fun of)... Canada has 7 million guns in a population of 10 million people, 8% unemployment rates (that might be outdated info...) and still manages to have so little crime. Their "ghetto" looks like some middle class townhomes! It is really incredible when you compare it to the US where we have only 4% unemployment, a very similar gun ratio, yet we have a heck of a lot more crime/murder. Sounds like an internal issue we'll eventually need to deal with before we can "fix" the rest of the world's problems, like terrorism.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:37 PM   #34
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For those who do not think the "war on Terror" is winnable and we should not be in Iraq, what do you think our best course of action if any is against terrorism and attacks against the US and it's allies?
If the people in charge with all the information don't know what to do then how should we? We do need to invest in our intelligence programs and follow the suggestions of 9/11 reports. Terrorism is breed in third world nations with people who have nothing but there religion and there hatred for people that don't believe what they do. If we got every one in that part of the world a job and enough to eat and an education then that would help but that's not going to happen. We have an ally in Israel and troops in the middle east so there are going to be people over there that want us dead just for that. I don't think you can ever get rid of the mind set, just try to learn what you can about it and about their actions and try to prevent them from doing us harm. The Bush administration said Iraq was contained, but then decided to go in there anyway, this has only made the matter worse
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:42 PM   #35
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Yes by all means, vote for Nader.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:50 PM   #36
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Foreign Policy:
Bush's "go get 'em" strategy
Kerry was quoted saying "we will never wait for a green light from abroad when our safety is at stake."

I don't see that as the same...going after some one when our safety is at stake and going after some one you said was contained are different in my mind


Quote:
the topic of abortion
You can believe life begins whenever and still be pro choice. Not following the life begins at birth credence doesn't mean you ride the fence it means you have a different point of view. The republicans were running an add bashing him for voting against the lacy peterson bill...he did that because he is pro choice and he didn't want to say that killing an unborn child should count as a murder because it would throw fuel on the fire of the pro lifers

Quote:
Death Penalty:
Bush, from Texas, obviously pro death penalty
Kerry straddles the fence saying death penalty is not OK unless it is for a terrorist (so all other mass murderers will not be included)

i see a difference there too...killing someone for an act of war against our country is different then killing someone as a deterrent that does not work

Quote:
same sex marriage:
Bush eats out of the church's hands (no offense)
Kerry says he is against same sex marriage, but that there shouldn't be a constitutional amendment and that states ought to fight it out ... so his basic viewpoint is the same there as well
I think Kerry's thing there was marriage wasn't okay but common law stuff was or something down that road. I'm not too sure on that. But I do think allowing states to decide something and making a Constitutional amendment to limits a minorities rights are very very different
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:53 PM   #37
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Yes by all means, vote for Nader.

You a part of the Republicans for Nadar movement? :P
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:56 PM   #38
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sumphead, I'll try to share my thoughts on your question. The question of whether the "War on Terror" is winnable is not a question of whether we should be doing what we're doing or doing nothing. The long-term question is how we can address the root cause of terrorism. The short-term question is how can we head off any immediate terrorist plans.

The long-term goal articulated by this administration is basically that democracy in the Middle East will take care of this. The rhetoric is that "they hate us for our freedom", and if we make them free they'll be happy. Unfortunately it isn't this simple. Democracy is an admirable goal, but cannot be imposed by fiat, especially with religious fundamentalism on both sides polarizing the situation. Nation-building is long and difficult, and I fervently hope that it works in Iraq. As I stated previously, using "carrot and stick" diplomacy to encourage liberalization of some of the more liberal autocracies in the middle east is IMHO a much more effective and cost-effective way to encourage the spread of respect for human rights and democracy than invasions.

The short-term goal would be to spend the money we are spending in Iraq to inspect containers at our ports, and refine our intelligence system so it's not so factional domestically, and work in a truly international framework to share information to understand these networks of terrorists. Some of this is being done, but the war in Iraq in conjunction with the tax cuts is killing our budget, and not allowing the basic domestic protection we need, cutting our police and firefighter services, and leaving our borders inconsitently monitored. I guess that terror alerts (to bring the thread back to its original topic) would have some meaning if they were implemented along with the money to allow the dedication of resources to address the alert level.

I'm just frustrated because the rhetoric does not match the reality, and I'd rather see politicians working for the good of the country rather than for their own political goals. I guess I'd rather see a situation where the good of the country and political goals are the same thing. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I think that we should expect more.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:58 PM   #39
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nice responses clamknuckle, I partially agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I still feel Kerry isn't being straight forward and is being very unclear in his positions on such controversial topics. I would respect him more if he wasn't trying to appease everyone in his statements. This is another reason why I can't wait for the debates because it will (hopefully) get all this greyness cleared up. Of course, it may just make things more muddled in the end... who knows
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:08 PM   #40
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nice responses clamknuckle
Thanks

poikilotherm...you said what i was thinking but you obviously have a higher mental capacity then me since i couldn't formulate my thoughts into words!

I hope that they will have real debates and not scripted ones...
I wish they would have real "town hall" type debates with out scripted questions that the candidates can prepare there answers for in advance
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