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Old 08-10-2004, 08:56 AM   #21
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Well, I really didn't start the thread to debate whether the US should do something or not. I'm sure there were plenty in the US that didn't want to help Jews in WW2. I just strongly believe in what they are trying to do and hoped a few here do too.
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Old 08-10-2004, 12:56 PM   #22
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Man, I just took World Civilizations II this summer in college and it was depressing enough to see how horrible things were in the past. I had to keep reminding myself that not everything is like that, but there are still atrocities being committed. I don't remember the exact name, but I believe after WWII, the US made a promise to help all free people from the tyranny and destruction of small armed groups. Yes, we have unemployed, but not as much as many countries out there (including Canada, with an 8% unemployment rate, huge amount of guns, yet no crime and their "ghettos" are better than my college apartment). I know people are concerned about taking care of themselves and making it in an unfair system within the US. They have every right to be concerned. The privatization of welfare within many areas, in my opinion, has done more harm and made it harder on individuals and families to make it in the world. Still, those people in Darfur, along with many others in the world, are suffering more than I think any of us can imagine. I do not want to sound like I am on a high horse, or claiming my values and morals are superior, but I think our country, AND OTHER COUNTRIES, have an obligation to help this group. Not to overthrow the government and place them in rule like we seem to do with every conflict. Instead, figure out a way to resolve the conflict. I know this conflict probably runs very deep in their culture, I think it should be in our hands to research the history and I believe that will provide a true solution. Most every country vowed after WWII that they would not stand by and let genocide occur anymore... I know countries have not upheld this oath, it happened while we were in Kosovo (not the Kosovo massacre, this was somewhere else...again the name escapes me... sorry) and we payed no attention to it. Democracy is based on protecting the little man or the minorities. We should extend this idea to the rest of the world. Not in a sense of policing the world, because that only brings about more conflict, but perhaps through education (and I am not saying these other nations are not educated) and example. America has a lot of internal problems to fix. Perhaps in attempting to solve those, we can lead other countries to do the same. I know all this sounds utopian, I am sure it is, but why not strive for perfection, even if it can never be reached? At least we can come close, and that should make it worth every effort.

Another note, I think people are not affected by this because they do not understand what it is like to live in this situation. Many cannot even fathom the idea. I believe this is also another problem which brings apathy, not just towards suffering victims, but even to voting. We take for granted that we live in a "free" country and that we are given choices. I think if more people were able to get out and have a first hand view of the rest of the world, then this apathy would lessen. Again, not everyone is able to do this, and it is another utopian view I have. I'll stop myself before I write a book. Thanks for reading, and I do appreciate everyone's expression of their own views. We can't just stop talking about a hot topic because we are afraid of arguments breaking out, rather, we should focus those energies into having discussions. Just dropping the subject, would be sweeping it under the rug, what if that happened with Civil Rights and Women's Suffrage? Just something to think about... thanks guys!
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:42 PM   #23
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I think we have enough messed up issues in this country. How about the drug and literacy problems with inner city youth, Deadbeat Dads, homelessness, poverty in agriculture, jobs moving out of the country due to labor costs, etc...Just think of what $1 billions dollars would do in one agriculture community to the farmers that feed this nation. We spent that last week in Iraq.

Let's take care of our fellow countrymen for a while, and let every one else figure it out on their own for a while.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:54 PM   #24
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Just a quick thought: this may be too idealistic...but why not take the $45,000 it would cost to send media over and send food/aid workers/and the necessary security for them - instead?

I know if I was starving over there, I'd rather see food/water than a camera. If you can protect the media people with the necessary security to get the coverage you need, then you could certainly protect food/aidworkers/etc.

That's just my opinion, and I may be simplifying things too much.

*This isn't to say media coverage is BAD....just may not be the best solution given other creative options and the desparate need for BASIC staples.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:55 PM   #25
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PLUS: unfortunately the credibility of media in general is declining at a rapid rate....so the idea that the media will "save" this situation...is idealistic at best.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Let's take care of our fellow countrymen for a while, and let every one else figure it out on their own for a while.
No doubt. By helping ourselves we can better help others. What's going to happen when all the people in this country who are receiving a very low quality education take the reins of this country's future? Do you think that maybe then we'll start paying attention to our own problems or will it be too late? Nothing guarantees that the USA will be around and a world power forever. Are all the countries that we help out going to help us when we are in need?

I'm sorry that the darfur people are going through this and maybe it's just a personality thing; but I would rather die trying to liberate myself then die by starvation. I would do what I had to do to free myself and my loved ones from my persecutors and if death results, so be it.

"...I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
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Old 08-12-2004, 04:09 PM   #27
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Once again, I really didn't want to turn this into a debate, but ok:

Quote:
I think we have enough messed up issues in this country. How about the drug and literacy problems with inner city youth, Deadbeat Dads, homelessness, poverty in agriculture, jobs moving out of the country due to labor costs, etc...Just think of what $1 billions dollars would do in one agriculture community to the farmers that feed this nation. We spent that last week in Iraq.
A poor person in America is far far better off than a poor person in any third world country, period. The people in Darfur aren't drug addicts, or people that need to sell their $300,000 homes because they won't accept a lower paying job, or people that otherwise have a chance to lift themselves up in this great country by getting humble and working hard. You show me one person who has absolutely no chance of going anywhere or doing anything in America and I'll show you 100 greedy, lazy slobs who need to get their head out of their :butt: and do something for themselves. I'm talking about starving woman and children who have no future but a quick violent death or a slow starving one.

Besides, the Iraq conflict is something that I've always been, and always will be, against . If we weren't there, we'd be in a better position to help those in need.

Quote:
Just a quick thought: this may be too idealistic...but why not take the $45,000 it would cost to send media over and send food/aid workers/and the necessary security for them - instead?
Because mounted, armed professional soldiers would kill the aid workers (after raping the women), take their food, and laugh at the security someone can buy with $45,000.

Quote:
PLUS: unfortunately the credibility of media in general is declining at a rapid rate....so the idea that the media will "save" this situation...is idealistic at best.
The credibility of our government as a peacekeeping entity is declining at a rapid rate. This is very dangerous, and makes America a dangerous place to live. For every country we preemptively strike, we scatter more people about who are willing to destroy us. Think--hornet's nest.

Quote:
By helping ourselves we can better help others.
No offence, but 8O . I remember a time, not too long ago, when helping others was the best way to help ourselves.

Quote:
I'm sorry that the darfur people are going through this and maybe it's just a personality thing; but I would rather die trying to liberate myself then die by starvation.
Hmm, let's see. Armed, mounted, professional soldiers against starving woman and children--who do you think will win?

Final thought: Perhaps it is just these annoying Christian values instilled in me in my youth. Perhaps, above all else, I want to feel like I am helping people live instead of helping people die. If you need to ignore this and pretend everyone has as many choices as Americans do, then that's fine. If you choose not to help, at least realize that situations like this are everywhere. Pretending they don't exist is not going to make them go away, and is moving us one step closer to being cattle. The cow happily chews her cud, oblivious of her fellows being brought to slaughter.
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Old 08-12-2004, 04:19 PM   #28
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Further final thought: I'm not trying to convince anyone to give, I'm simply making people who do want to give aware of a need that exists right now.
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Old 08-12-2004, 04:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by shawmutt
Quote:
By helping ourselves we can better help others.
No offence, but 8O . I remember a time, not too long ago, when helping others was the best way to help ourselves.
I think you're spinning words now. His suggestion was to help others, just in our own corner of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawmutt
Final thought: Perhaps it is just these annoying Christian values instilled in me in my youth. Perhaps, above all else, I want to feel like I am helping people live instead of helping people die. If you need to ignore this and pretend everyone has as many choices as Americans do, then that's fine. If you choose not to help, at least realize that situations like this are everywhere. Pretending they don't exist is not going to make them go away, and is moving us one step closer to being cattle. The cow happily chews her cud, oblivious of her fellows being brought to slaughter.
I am not suggesting pretending they don't exist, I just don't think the US needs to be everyone's white knight while we have so many domestic problems. Helping people in this country is no less noble than some person 99.9999% of Americans will never see.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:01 PM   #30
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I'm starting to get a little offended by some of the responses in this thread now. And I know I could just not read it if it bothers me, but I happen to be interested in the ORIGINAL TOPIC and keep thinking (foolishly) that a new post might actually be about the progress in Darfur.

Again I feel the need to make my analogy.. please listen this time or I will simply continue to repeat this post until the thread is locked

Why aren't you arguing in Rev's thead that people should be giving their cash to help the needy in your country instead of this forum? Because everyone has the right to do what they want with their money AND it would be totally inappropriate to spam, YES SPAM, that thread like this. Am I the only one here who thinks it's amazing that you guys are actually arguing against someone's particular choice of charity??!

Someone do something about this... please.
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