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Old 04-06-2005, 06:09 PM   #51
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Supply and demand with regard to oil prices is a fact.
Brian, I was referring to the "tax" that people should have to pay. I hope my comment didn't come across as the countries dependency on oil is just an opinion.
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Old 04-07-2005, 10:38 AM   #52
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It didn't come across that way at all Fishyfanatic. I think using any tax as form of punishment is both counterproductive and harmful. It's inflationary and puts people out of work. It also limits our freedom of choice. Hmmm. How would you feel about paying $1 per gallon tax on your energy consuming 150 gallon tank. I'm being facetious, not picking on you.

IMO we have the technology to make oil consumption for energy a thing of the past. What we're lacking is a cohesive energy policy and the will of our leadership to get it done. QTOFFER is right on. I hope it doesn't take a complete economic collapse to wake up the politicians.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:10 PM   #53
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One of my co-workers has 4 kids who are between the ages of 8 and 15. She has to haul them around all the time to baseball practices, religion classes, volleyball games, 4H meetings, school, recitles, everything. This includes sports equipment, farm animals (chickens and ducks in cages), other students/friends, music instruments.
Nobody forced her to have 4 kids, that was her choice. Life is full of choices and some of them cost $$$.
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Why should Suzie Q Soccer Mom be penalized because she is the one who carpools the neighborhood kids to school and soccer practice? She has to have a bigger vehicle. Therefore, she has to pay more money in taxes in addition to gas and insurance?
Because she is using more gas, yes. It's not punishment. You use more gas, you pay more tax, pretty simple concept.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:37 PM   #54
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The problem with a penalty tax for consumption of oil is that it's in direct conflict with what this country is all about Paul. Our economy is consumer based and driven by demand for goods and services. A penalizing tax on oil will cripple us.

Oil is a finite resource. I'm not saying it should be wasted. What I am saying is that we shouldn't need the oil in the first place. I would love to see us as a free nation develop and utilize other sources to power our homes and vehicles. This would not only save the oil for the petrochemical industries, but leap frog the economy by creating a new consumer demand.

Right now we can power our homes with solar, wind, even nuclear. The problem is that there isn't enough demand to offset the costs of implementation. The demand should be created via tax incentives, not tax penalties.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:39 PM   #55
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There's no "penalties". Taxes are "disincentives". And I agree with corvus - No one forces people to have 20 kids. I'm assuming those people understand that those kids cost money before they start having them. As it is, people without kids in this country already support those with kids. So I'm not exactly "moved" by the argument that they need an 8,000 lb. battlewagon to take their 2 kids to soccer practice.

Yes, absolutely taxes hurt economic growth. ALL taxes are bad. Anytime people's money is spent by a third party, particularly the government ripe with corruption, it's bad. Taxes are necessary, unfortunately, and as long as they're necessary you might as well use them to encourage/discourage certain behaviors.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:49 PM   #56
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Well that's just fine Clown Monarch. Your 330w PC uses far more energy then most peoples single strip light. Now you want that lighting, but you really don't NEED it. Would you agree with taxing yourself for excessive power consumption? I mean afterall, you decided to use that much lighting.

How is it different with an automobile, or air conditioning ones home?
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:56 PM   #57
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The problem with a penalty tax for consumption of oil is that it's in direct conflict with what this country is all about Paul. Our economy is consumer based and driven by demand for goods and services. A penalizing tax on oil will cripple us.

Oil is a finite resource. I'm not saying it should be wasted. What I am saying is that we shouldn't need the oil in the first place. I would love to see us as a free nation develop and utilize other sources to power our homes and vehicles. This would not only save the oil for the petrochemical industries, but leap frog the economy by creating a new consumer demand.

Right now we can power our homes with solar, wind, even nuclear. The problem is that there isn't enough demand to offset the costs of implementation. The demand should be created via tax incentives, not tax penalties.
By NOT taxing the use of oil, you are defeating your own objective to find other sources of power.

Your "consumer-driven" argument necessitates that consumers will, by economic law, use the energy source that's the cheapest and most convenient. In our case gasoline fits that bill. Suppliers have little incentive to research/supply alternative fuels because the demand for gasoline is high and the costs of substitutes are high. If we tax gasoline consumption/subsidize alternative fuels, the demand for gasoline falls while the demand for alternative fuels rises. This will cause suppliers to research/supply alternative fuels now that there's profit motive. It also facilitates a smoother transition between oil and alternative sources.

So, in a purely capitalistic society (where there are no taxes, incentives, or disincentives), NO ONE would research alternative fuels until the market value of oil rose high enough to justify using alternatives. No one would have any incentive to buy alternative fuel cars, and it wouldn't matter anyway because no supplier would have any incentive to produce them. In this scenario, by the time the price of oil made alternative fuel choices appealing, we'd be 20 years behind the technology curve for efficient production.
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Old 04-07-2005, 01:07 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BrianNY
Well that's just fine Clown Monarch. Your 330w PC uses far more energy then most peoples single strip light. Now you want that lighting, but you really don't NEED it. Would you agree with taxing yourself for excessive power consumption? I mean afterall, you decided to use that much lighting.

How is it different with an automobile, or air conditioning ones home?
The difference is that the coal required to produce the electricity for those lights is expected to last us another 40,000 years. Oil, on the other hand, may be economically useful for maybe 20-30 more years.

If they found it necessary to curb electrical usage by imposing more taxes on it, or subsidizing the use of alternative sources, I might erect some solar panels on top of my house. I actually would require very little incentive to do something like this.
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:16 PM   #59
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Gas is a driving economic factor. Rase the costs fo gas to much either by normal supply/demand, or taxation and the economy WILL suffer. It will cost more to drive to stores, it will cost more to deliver products and the end result is less spending.

Clown from many of your responsees I get the feeling you dont have kids and until they reach levels of 5+ years the end result is needing to carry all kinds of extra stuff with you when you go on even the most simple trips. The 'family' car used to be a huge 4 door boat or a large 5 door station wagon but those have been replaced by mid and large sized SUV's. Ultimatly I expect both types got equivlent fuel economies.

Alternate fuel cars and trucks while being envioment friendly are not overly desirable to the mainstreem because of the lack of alternative fueling stations. The gas/electric hybrits that charge the batteries while on gas power are about the easiest alternative and I have yet to see advertised a large capacity car or SUV that is powered that way and the cost of the hybrid cars are much higher (at least the ones I have seen) than the equivlent gas only versions.

Its the classic chicken and egg issue where people wont buy large volumes of alternate fuel cars and trucks until there is ample fuling/recharging stations and companies wont invest millons and billions of dollars into building those fuling/recharging stations until there is a decent demand. So whos gonna leap first? The consumer buying something that they might have one or two fuling stations in their city and who knows what kind of availblity in other areas or investment firms to invest money to construct and develop alternate fuel stations when there is no real demand for them yet.

Ultimatly Gas is something that the consumer cant be without and has next to no control over as far as price. We all need it. Most of us need to purchase it and the only choice we have is the location we purchase it from. About the only thing we can truly do is inform our state and federal representives that we are disgruntled about the fuel costs and are interested in legislation to control fuel costs or incentivise alernate fuel research.
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:38 PM   #60
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I once owned a 1968 Buick Wildcat. A 19-foot long convertible with giant I-beams in the trunk to stabilize the body. It was HUGE. It weighed 4,850 lbs. It was beautiful and powerful but needlessly wasteful. Premium leaded gasoline for it also cost me about $1 per gallon.

Some of those SUVs today routinely weigh 5,6,7, even 8,000 lbs or more. I'd say the average family sedan made in the 60's and 70's (the largest cars ever) probably weighed 4,000 lbs.

The problem is that everyone now wants 4-wheel drive - that's where all the weight comes from. I'd be willing to bet that 99.99999% of soccer-moms with a 5,000 lb+ SUV have no intention of ever taking it off-road or otherwise having ANY use for 4WD. Anyone who knows how to drive doesn't even need front-wheel drive, let alone 4WD - even in the snow.

It really doesn't matter to me what reasons people have for needing ridiculously large vehicles, my point is that they should be discouraged. I don't care about kids, safety, or any specific person's issues. The plan is to discourage wasteful vehicles. I see 100 massive SUVs in Chicago everyday and RARELY does one ever have anyone in it besides the driver.

I'm only offering solutions, anyway. I take public transportation everyday. Frankly I hope gasoline goes to $100/gallon to really stick it to SUV owners - particularly the ones who've bought one in the past few years knowing full well that the price of gas is high.
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Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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