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Old 06-26-2013, 10:40 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Andy Sager View Post

I guess my question is : On what basis do you make this statement?
?????????
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:57 PM   #42
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?????????
What I'm asking is with all the literature available on Bettas: Books, Websites, breeders logs and Bettas Societies, and all the breeding farms as well as people including myself who have successfully kept Bettas to ripe old ages in smaller containers, all saying differently from your comment, How you can state that the minimum size container for a Betta should be no less than 2 1/2 gals? How did you reach that determination? Is that an opinion? Based on Facts? Based on experiences? Based on someone else's information? There are more people on this site besides me who would like to know
( Believe me, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse or boost my opinion over yours. I truly believe you are misinformed and not giving out accurate information. Just trying to get it straight for us all once and for all )
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:24 PM   #43
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This is a nice post but unfortunately, your statements are not back up by facts. If you study the history of the development of today's "designer" Bettas, you'll see that they were kept in bowls, successfully, starting over 300 years ago. If this was the wrong way of keeping these fish, they would not have survived. Also, considering that the thousands of Bettas that are created today in the Far East for sale all over the world spend some of their growing time in bowls, again, if this was an incorrect way of keeping these fish, there would not be so many available to the market. Now I'm not saying that keeping them in bowls is easier than tanks. In fact, it's harder. But there is no way you can say that it is cruel and unhealthy to keep them this way. My 2 Male Bettas are just as active in their 1/2 gal bowls as they were in my 20 gal filtered tank. That's because I make sure I keep my bowl water is as clean as my tank water. ( and yes, I have clean tank water )

As for the puddles, you are talking about the wild Bettas and they can exist forever in those puddles provided that there is clean water and a food source in that water. Of course there would need to be rain to revitalize the puddles as evaporation alone could deplete the water to the point that they wouldn't live. A time limit of 2-5 days is unsubstantiateable. As for them living in large, deep waters, there are videos online of Betta collectors in extremely shallow water collecting wild Bettas so NO, they don't come from large deep waters. But we are not talking about wild caught Bettas. Today's Bettas are a far link to their wild ancestors and should not be compared.
You do make a very good point that if the person isn't prepared to supply all the necessities to keep their Betta fish healthy then they shouldn't buy the fish. I agree totally with that
As for the abuse, it's only abuse if you neglect to care for your fish properly, no matter what you are keeping them in. Again, using my males as examples, I highly doubt they would be blowing nests in their bowls if they were not healthy.
It's great that you are so passionate to want people to take better care of their fish but you need to also tell the whole story. You or I or anyone else cannot speak for the fish that they are not "happy" or "don't like" their living situations. The fish's actions alone need to be interpreted correctly to ascertain their level of "happiness". Your comments only sensationalize an already touchy subject.

Hopefully this will be taken in the spirit it was written, as an educational piece, and not a confrontation. I have not offered any opinions, just documented facts. I have worked with Bettas for over 40 years so I also have a wealth of experience with the fish. You are correct that this is a misunderstood fish. It's misunderstood because it does not need all the same requirements as most of the typical fish kept in aquariums. People's desire to make them live the ways of other fish is how they have become so misunderstood. ( THAT'S my opinion )

Thanks for reading this through
+1 Andy! I have seen bettas in the wild and this is all correct....they are a "Rice Paddy" fish and their whole lives are based on two seasons, Dry and Monsoon. They don't seem to care for lakes and deep water and spend lives in rice paddy drainage areas...slowly flowing, stagnant, dirty water...until the rains come which allow males to move about through flooded areas for mating. They never would have adapted the Labyrinth organ otherwise. This is a fish partially shaped by man(through agriculture) and used as a pest control as well. (Rice paddies are a great breeding ground for mosquitoes, and bettas eat mosquito larvae... its all good) During dry season, and the ripening of the rice plants, the paddies dry up leaving the fish in small puddles, some no bigger than a water buffalo footprint, but as Andy pointed out, as long as food is available, the fish will do fine until the rains come and free him up. Now some enterprising Thai farmer noticed this, and noticed how fiesty the males were, and took it upon himself to breed them. In Thailand, these fish are now bred for their colorful finnage, and fighting prowess. Yes these fish are FOUGHT, like finned gladiators, many times to the death. The fish now has a dual use for the Farmers. They bred the colorful, and finnage for export, and fighting varieties for domestic use. Many famers even breed wild varieties for release back into the paddies to control mosquito outbreaks. This fish is no stranger to human interaction, and may have adated itself very well to the new relationship. And this relationship may go back a few thousand years, a Betta farmer there once told me an Emperor of China used to keep the "Fighting Fish". Now if you have EVER visited a Thai betta farm...you notice the farmers are basically keeping these fish pretty close to the fishes' natural environment, cramped quarters, barracks where males can see each other, and a number of other 'no-nos' I continue to read about. But yet the fish still prospers and grows. You cn see firsthand this is no new relationship, that generations of people farming these fish had to have occured for the knowledge base to build up. I am not saying to ignore your bettas and let the home he is in turn into a sewer, but be aware, this is a hardy fish with a LONG history of human interaction. And if you have the resources, and the will, sure go ahead and give them the best home you can. All of mine are very happy fish in the home they have. Blowing giant nests, and annoying their snail tankmates! And most of the homes they are in are 1.5 to 2.5 gal. And each fish is active and curious. Their water is NOT on a strict change schedule, but when water is changed it is a full change to represent a "Rain Washout" Usually each betta gets one close to every two weeks, with a new Catalpa leaf. Now as far as filters and heaters...I do not do that. The majority of my bettas do NOT like being in the filtered tanks as it blows them around more than they care for. Usually after 2 days I will notice the fish 'Pacing a wall' Trying to 'get out' so to speak. So I add no aeration, or filters. I personally think it irritates the longer finned males, but all my girls don't seem to care. As for heaters, my house is toasty in the winter. It is not feasible to buy 30 some heaters for all my homes and the water stays at 73f during the winter. The only worry I have is in summer as it does tend to get cool in here with the AC to keep the human occupants cool. Most of my males live close enough to see their neighbors. It exercises them and let them know there ARE other bettas in their world. Yeah there are flare wars, but now they only last a few moments. I switch neighbors up all the time as well...cuz hey, in the wild these fish WILL meet other males. (Except here, in this environment, they are NOT allowed to fight!) I offer then Live food when I can and vary their diet constantly to stave off bloat. I do highly recommend the Catalpa leaves (Aka Indian Almond leaves) in your betta home. My boys all seem to be healthier and less prone to fin rot. The leaves are a natural water conditioner and have alot of anti-fungal/anti-bacteria properties. That was one thing I noticed when I visited a betta farm was the pile of these leaves, so I had to ask... the farmer said they used them to 'help the fish water' So I put them in all the bowls a thumb sized chunk, and so far it seems to help. even if it stains the water tes colored. I guess what I wanna say, like Andy above, is keep your betta as well as you can....but keep an eye on him. Compared to what his species is used to, he is in heaven in your tank, bowl, soda bottle, vase....as long as he has clean water, food and someone watching over him, he will be happy. And I for one am glad to see so many people take interest in this fish. And I am happy to share what I know about them. Having seen them in their home origin and talking to the folks who know them intimately there, I learned alot about this fish. And I learned it from the people who have known them since the relationship started. Even if one of the uses of this fish is somewhat sinister and cruel. But before it was called betta, the PC name, they were known as Siamese Fighting Fish.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:32 AM   #44
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+1 Andy! I have seen bettas in the wild and this is all correct....they are a "Rice Paddy" fish and their whole lives are based on two seasons, Dry and Monsoon. They don't seem to care for lakes and deep water and spend lives in rice paddy drainage areas...slowly flowing, stagnant, dirty water...until the rains come which allow males to move about through flooded areas for mating. They never would have adapted the Labyrinth organ otherwise. This is a fish partially shaped by man(through agriculture) and used as a pest control as well. (Rice paddies are a great breeding ground for mosquitoes, and bettas eat mosquito larvae... its all good) During dry season, and the ripening of the rice plants, the paddies dry up leaving the fish in small puddles, some no bigger than a water buffalo footprint, but as Andy pointed out, as long as food is available, the fish will do fine until the rains come and free him up. Now some enterprising Thai farmer noticed this, and noticed how fiesty the males were, and took it upon himself to breed them. In Thailand, these fish are now bred for their colorful finnage, and fighting prowess. Yes these fish are FOUGHT, like finned gladiators, many times to the death. The fish now has a dual use for the Farmers. They bred the colorful, and finnage for export, and fighting varieties for domestic use. Many famers even breed wild varieties for release back into the paddies to control mosquito outbreaks. This fish is no stranger to human interaction, and may have adated itself very well to the new relationship. And this relationship may go back a few thousand years, a Betta farmer there once told me an Emperor of China used to keep the "Fighting Fish". Now if you have EVER visited a Thai betta farm...you notice the farmers are basically keeping these fish pretty close to the fishes' natural environment, cramped quarters, barracks where males can see each other, and a number of other 'no-nos' I continue to read about. But yet the fish still prospers and grows. You cn see firsthand this is no new relationship, that generations of people farming these fish had to have occured for the knowledge base to build up. I am not saying to ignore your bettas and let the home he is in turn into a sewer, but be aware, this is a hardy fish with a LONG history of human interaction. And if you have the resources, and the will, sure go ahead and give them the best home you can. All of mine are very happy fish in the home they have. Blowing giant nests, and annoying their snail tankmates! And most of the homes they are in are 1.5 to 2.5 gal. And each fish is active and curious. Their water is NOT on a strict change schedule, but when water is changed it is a full change to represent a "Rain Washout" Usually each betta gets one close to every two weeks, with a new Catalpa leaf. Now as far as filters and heaters...I do not do that. The majority of my bettas do NOT like being in the filtered tanks as it blows them around more than they care for. Usually after 2 days I will notice the fish 'Pacing a wall' Trying to 'get out' so to speak. So I add no aeration, or filters. I personally think it irritates the longer finned males, but all my girls don't seem to care. As for heaters, my house is toasty in the winter. It is not feasible to buy 30 some heaters for all my homes and the water stays at 73f during the winter. The only worry I have is in summer as it does tend to get cool in here with the AC to keep the human occupants cool. Most of my males live close enough to see their neighbors. It exercises them and let them know there ARE other bettas in their world. Yeah there are flare wars, but now they only last a few moments. I switch neighbors up all the time as well...cuz hey, in the wild these fish WILL meet other males. (Except here, in this environment, they are NOT allowed to fight!) I offer then Live food when I can and vary their diet constantly to stave off bloat. I do highly recommend the Catalpa leaves (Aka Indian Almond leaves) in your betta home. My boys all seem to be healthier and less prone to fin rot. The leaves are a natural water conditioner and have alot of anti-fungal/anti-bacteria properties. That was one thing I noticed when I visited a betta farm was the pile of these leaves, so I had to ask... the farmer said they used them to 'help the fish water' So I put them in all the bowls a thumb sized chunk, and so far it seems to help. even if it stains the water tes colored. I guess what I wanna say, like Andy above, is keep your betta as well as you can....but keep an eye on him. Compared to what his species is used to, he is in heaven in your tank, bowl, soda bottle, vase....as long as he has clean water, food and someone watching over him, he will be happy. And I for one am glad to see so many people take interest in this fish. And I am happy to share what I know about them. Having seen them in their home origin and talking to the folks who know them intimately there, I learned alot about this fish. And I learned it from the people who have known them since the relationship started. Even if one of the uses of this fish is somewhat sinister and cruel. But before it was called betta, the PC name, they were known as Siamese Fighting Fish.
Wow!
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:06 AM   #45
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My mom keeps her poor betta in a one gal she says he's not agressive like those other bettas. He's docile. She's ignorant. I've told her hundreds of times he needs a bigger tank and a heater. She tried to tell me once she kept a goldfish for 20 years in a fish bowl. Some people only hear what they want to hear. My bettas in a 5gal. I got him from a friend and he was already stunted, they bought him as a baby at petco. He's the tiniest betta I've ever seen but he's happy now in his big planted tank
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:13 PM   #46
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My mom keeps her poor betta in a one gal she says he's not agressive like those other bettas. He's docile. She's ignorant. I've told her hundreds of times he needs a bigger tank and a heater. She tried to tell me once she kept a goldfish for 20 years in a fish bowl. Some people only hear what they want to hear. My bettas in a 5gal. I got him from a friend and he was already stunted, they bought him as a baby at petco. He's the tiniest betta I've ever seen but he's happy now in his big planted tank
Awe that's sad :'( my friend got 2 bettas and they're in a "tank" smaller than 0.3 gallon , and I'm glad your betta is in a 5 gallon , mine are in a 2.5 and 3 gallon , they look so tiny in there tanks , I would have them in a 5 gallon but I have do many animals , and so little money , and I just got a frog so I'm going to have to spend around 30 dollars for that :/ , but I've been researching frogs for 5 months already so it's good , and it's a California tree frog
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:56 PM   #47
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My mom keeps her poor betta in a one gal she says he's not agressive like those other bettas. He's docile. She's ignorant. I've told her hundreds of times he needs a bigger tank and a heater. She tried to tell me once she kept a goldfish for 20 years in a fish bowl. Some people only hear what they want to hear. My bettas in a 5gal. I got him from a friend and he was already stunted, they bought him as a baby at petco. He's the tiniest betta I've ever seen but he's happy now in his big planted tank
Bettas CAN BE kept in that small of a water container. The fish's docileness has nothing to do with the size tank it needs. Please read 98kshooter's post of 6/26/13. This is from someone who saw WITH HIS OWN EYES the way Bettas live in the wild and are raised for commercial purposes. It holds much more weight than the multitude of posts by people just offering opinions based on misinformation. You are more than welcome to keep your fish in larger tanks but don't admonish those who choose not to as the fish does not suffer from this as you think they do. The fish only suffer if they are kept in poor quality water and poorly fed in any size container of water.

As to stunting, I am a commercial Betta breeder. I have, in every spawn, Bettas that are stunted for no other reason than they are genetically disposed to being stunted. I raise my fry in 40 gal of water as well as 30 gal, 60 gal and 20 gal tanks and still get stunted fish. Stunting also happens by the nature of the fish. In every spawn, the faster growing fry send out a hormone to stunt their siblings. Truth is, buying "baby Bettas" from Petco is not a guarantee that they are in fact babies. They very well could have been stunted fry from their breeders. This is why I wouldn't buy baby Bettas where I didn't see the rest of the spawn. You have no guarantees as to their age.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:04 PM   #48
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Bettas CAN BE kept in that small of a water container. The fish's docileness has nothing to do with the size tank it needs. Please read 98kshooter's post of 6/26/13. This is from someone who saw WITH HIS OWN EYES the way Bettas live in the wild and are raised for commercial purposes. It holds much more weight than the multitude of posts by people just offering opinions based on misinformation. You are more than welcome to keep your fish in larger tanks but don't admonish those who choose not to as the fish does not suffer from this as you think they do. The fish only suffer if they are kept in poor quality water and poorly fed in any size container of water.

As to stunting, I am a commercial Betta breeder. I have, in every spawn, Bettas that are stunted for no other reason than they are genetically disposed to being stunted. I raise my fry in 40 gal of water as well as 30 gal, 60 gal and 20 gal tanks and still get stunted fish. Stunting also happens by the nature of the fish. In every spawn, the faster growing fry send out a hormone to stunt their siblings. Truth is, buying "baby Bettas" from Petco is not a guarantee that they are in fact babies. They very well could have been stunted fry from their breeders. This is why I wouldn't buy baby Bettas where I didn't see the rest of the spawn. You have no guarantees as to their age.
I'm with you Andy and 98kshooter all the way. Sorry but I've had bettas love a 1g unfiltered more than any other size. The fish are, well I'm scared to say this on here, fish. As long as they have some food and clean water, they're "happy" little fish.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:13 PM   #49
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This is my 3g Betta setup, holding only one delta tailed male Betta. I have a 10g tank besides that with a baby female and three tetra.

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Old 07-01-2013, 12:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Andy Sager View Post

Bettas CAN BE kept in that small of a water container. The fish's docileness has nothing to do with the size tank it needs. Please read 98kshooter's post of 6/26/13. This is from someone who saw WITH HIS OWN EYES the way Bettas live in the wild and are raised for commercial purposes. It holds much more weight than the multitude of posts by people just offering opinions based on misinformation. You are more than welcome to keep your fish in larger tanks but don't admonish those who choose not to as the fish does not suffer from this as you think they do. The fish only suffer if they are kept in poor quality water and poorly fed in any size container of water.

As to stunting, I am a commercial Betta breeder. I have, in every spawn, Bettas that are stunted for no other reason than they are genetically disposed to being stunted. I raise my fry in 40 gal of water as well as 30 gal, 60 gal and 20 gal tanks and still get stunted fish. Stunting also happens by the nature of the fish. In every spawn, the faster growing fry send out a hormone to stunt their siblings. Truth is, buying "baby Bettas" from Petco is not a guarantee that they are in fact babies. They very well could have been stunted fry from their breeders. This is why I wouldn't buy baby Bettas where I didn't see the rest of the spawn. You have no guarantees as to their age.
Well said!! I love keeping 'impossible' tanks and- ooooh the dreaded ornamental bowls and vases!! I use a lot of semi aquatic plants rooted, usually in 1g bowls or vases and replace 100% water 3 times a day and let them loose in my big planted tanks to simulate rainy and dry seasons and have never had the patience to actually explain the science behind it- though I use keptang leaves
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