When getting forum advice

[Andy Sager]

Funny, I kept myself housed during college by raising thousands of FW fish and some importing at my fish farm back in the 70's. Angel fish was our speciality, had maybe 50 breeding pairs. I and my friends did the angel fish thing clear into the 90's. We supplied about a four state area and our own retail store. Farm had about 200, 20 gallon long tanks that I built and about 15,000 gallon in pools we setup for live bearers.


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Greg, You're a man after my own heart.

 

[Cold Canadian]

I agree with this whole thread. I myself am only a teenager and a hobbyist of 3 years. I look up to people like Andy who can prove their knowledge with success and facts. I don't even keep angelfish and I have been reading "wiggliers 2" since day one because there is more to that thread then breeding angelfish I aspire to be that great.
Being on the forum I have learnt lots I believe that a I sort through the right and wrong pretty well.

Thank you all who are hear to better the hobby.


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[Caliban07]

I think some of the 'problem' is that fishkeeping has suddenly become so much more popular as it was 40-50 years ago. I placed problem in inverted commas because is that really a bad thing? It like most things really. When something starts out originally the 'masters' hone their skills and ply their trade. There is passion and they are proud, things get done properly. As time progresses and popularity increases that very essence can become lost. Even more so where a quick buck can be earned. This doesn't also mean that the original methods and skills cannot be improved over time either (technology and science)

With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

Sometimes I have read books that contain so 'old practices' that are well outdated and I sort of feel embarrassed for the author, what we do now will change in time and someone will have the same feeling about the way we do things. The Internet is not a bad thing, this forum is not a bad thing. People that are not willing to adapt or be open to changes in their philosophies can be bad things. People that force their opinion can be bad things. This forum is called aquarium advice 'an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action.....take it or leave it and don't be upset if it is the latter. A person has the right to make up their own mind, learn by their mistakes and hone their own skills.


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[fishenthusiast]

I think some of the 'problem' is that fishkeeping has suddenly become so much more popular as it was 40-50 years ago. I placed problem in inverted commas because is that really a bad thing? It like most things really. When something starts out originally the 'masters' hone their skills and ply their trade. There is passion and they are proud, things get done properly. As time progresses and popularity increases that very essence can become lost. Even more so where a quick buck can be earned. This doesn't also mean that the original methods and skills cannot be improved over time either (technology and science)

With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

Sometimes I have read books that contain so 'old practices' that are well outdated and I sort of feel embarrassed for the author, what we do now will change in time and someone will have the same feeling about the way we do things. The Internet is not a bad thing, this forum is not a bad thing. People that are not willing to adapt or be open to changes in their philosophies can be bad things. People that force their opinion can be bad things. This forum is called aquarium advice 'an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action.....take it or leave it and don't be upset if it is the latter. A person has the right to make up their own mind, learn by their mistakes and hone their own skills.


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Well said, Caliban!

I agree with you. My take on given advice on threads is that it is up to the OP to decide on what he or she wants in the end. There are plenty of great aquarists to read from and learn from--some are even on this forum. With good research and dedication, I think that an aquarist can accomplish his/her goal(s). With a forum, you are going to get mixed views--it's really unavoidable. Mixed views can be either be good or bad; good in that they can offer the OP a broad range of directions to go in, or bad in that it could confuse the OP and they could in end up going in a wrong direction. I think that AA is great, and I wouldn't leave it for another forum--I do get on TPT occasionally to find info or PM people that are not on AA. In the end, a forum is what a forum is, a small community of people. I'm just glad that this one is a good one. I joined a weightlifting forum once, and they were a bunch of jerks and it wasn't a friendly community at all haha.

 

[Andy Sager]

With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

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While I understand this is the way things are today, this is the part of your comment that I have issues with. How does someone, walking into a new scenario ( in this case, fish keeping) , getting all this information ( good and bad) supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Think back to the first day you had a fish tank. You walked into a store ( I presume ) and told someone behind the counter that you wanted a fish tank and asked what you needed to do. They told you what you needed and you assumed they were right because they were working in the store and keeping the fish. But you didn't know for sure if that person's info was right or wrong. You just assumed it was. Now, you are taking that person from the store and turning them into a huge community or internet where there is no filter or visual proof of what's being said is true and expecting the person, the new fish keeper, to know what is right and what isn't? It makes no sense. They are new so they don't know what is right or wrong nor have the ability to do so. Not that they are dumb or stupid, they are NEW. While the internet is full of information, it only answers the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask. Which brings us back to the thread topic, you have to be skeptical of what you learn and who you learn it from. So, where in here, besides this thread that I know of, is this comment shown to a new fish keeper?

Don't get me wrong, I love that the hobby is back in popularity. I have been in it for over 50 years now and still going strong. I saw the decline in the 70s & 80s ( Darn you PONG and Pacman !!!! ) so it's nice to see people, especially younger people, getting back into it. However, if you think about it, every piece of new technology ( computers, tablets, phones, video games, etc) come with an instruction manual or URL to get the instructions on how to use their new product. It even comes with a troubleshooting section for the "what ifs" . There really isn't one of those for keeping the fish. There used to be books all about starting the aquarium. Now, you get told to look on the internet which brings us back full circle to the whole issue on what and where do you get your trusted information from. Acceptance of under performance is the catalyst of disaster. Maybe that's an old hippie philosophy ( Score one for us old folks who lived through the 60s ) but I think it still applies today. That's all I'm sayin'

 

[Brookster123]

I'll just add one little snippet. I've found a few people on here to be my "go to" for specific questions regarding specific circumstances. Rather than post a thread and risk opinionated derailment? Simply pm them with the question. Hasn't failed me yet. Now I wouldn't recommend seeking special attention with constant pms. It's always nice to have that ace in the hole!

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[Caliban07]

While I understand this is the way things are today, this is the part of your comment that I have issues with. How does someone, walking into a new scenario ( in this case, fish keeping) , getting all this information ( good and bad) supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Think back to the first day you had a fish tank. You walked into a store ( I presume ) and told someone behind the counter that you wanted a fish tank and asked what you needed to do. They told you what you needed and you assumed they were right because they were working in the store and keeping the fish. But you didn't know for sure if that person's info was right or wrong. You just assumed it was. Now, you are taking that person from the store and turning them into a huge community or internet where there is no filter or visual proof of what's being said is true and expecting the person, the new fish keeper, to know what is right and what isn't? It makes no sense. They are new so they don't know what is right or wrong nor have the ability to do so. Not that they are dumb or stupid, they are NEW. While the internet is full of information, it only answers the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask. Which brings us back to the thread topic, you have to be skeptical of what you learn and who you learn it from. So, where in here, besides this thread that I know of, is this comment shown to a new fish keeper?



Don't get me wrong, I love that the hobby is back in popularity. I have been in it for over 50 years now and still going strong. I saw the decline in the 70s & 80s ( Darn you PONG and Pacman !!!! ) so it's nice to see people, especially younger people, getting back into it. However, if you think about it, every piece of new technology ( computers, tablets, phones, video games, etc) come with an instruction manual or URL to get the instructions on how to use their new product. It even comes with a troubleshooting section for the "what ifs" . There really isn't one of those for keeping the fish. There used to be books all about starting the aquarium. Now, you get told to look on the internet which brings us back full circle to the whole issue on what and where do you get your trusted information from. Acceptance of under performance is the catalyst of disaster. Maybe that's an old hippie philosophy ( Score one for us old folks who lived through the 60s ) but I think it still applies today. That's all I'm sayin'

Hmm Andy, I feel like you are trying to tell us something without actually saying it? What is the answer then? Go back to mom and pop stores? Those times are gone forever...reminisce and move on

I bought my first tank from one of these places and yes I made a huge mistake with just about everything. Could it have been avoided? Not easily. I was only 15 and there wasn't many alternatives that I knew about. Fast forward 15 years where the Internet is a well oiled machine. My second tank was purchased off a website similar to Craig's list after researching which compatible fish I wanted to keep and which size/shape tank was suitable for them. I then researched a suitable filter of which my choice was made easier by countless buyer reviews. I learned about the nitrogen cycle....not from a mom and pop store...but from the Internet and chosen which method to use having weighed up the pros and cons of both after reading people's thoughts and experience of both. I did EVERYTHING apart from buy the fish using the Internet. People don't use the Internet because people tell them to its because books are old and the Internet is new. Ironically I bought Diana walstad's book recently, thank god for the Internet for bringing it to my attention. I used a tool that everyone has access to to make the right choices including this very forum that I am typing on now.

Do I feel sorry for myself for listening to the mom and pop store? No. That very experience made me better at the hobby. That's what hobbies are about aren't they? practicing, honing, experiencing peaks and troughs, learning, progressing, adapting and most importantly sharing. That IS the cycle. There are new people that come here everyday, those that seek advice, information and opinion before they set up their tanks and those that come here after they have listened to the wrong people but as time moves forward the latter will become the minority and as long as this forum exists (granted to us by the birth of Internet) then the more people will want to and be able to collate as much information as possible so as to make an informed decision which is ultimately always going to be there own.

FYI: if you type the name of your wiggles thread in on Google it is the forth link down. The information is out there you just have to find it and use very basic skills to determine if this information is right for you or not.


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[mr_X]

See what works for the masses- generally this is the right way to go. Occasionally you'll find copied and pasted incorrect info (like not too long ago, when you googled pectinia, it came up listed as a small polyp scleractinian). The arguments I caused when i stated it was a large polyp coral were crazy. statements like "dude...mine eats large hunks of meaty foods" were discounted because it was listed as such on every website.
The same with the lighting threads- how long did it take for people to believe you could grow corals under those Taotronics-like fixtures? Because some alleged "guru" somewhere decided to write a LED lighting article stating they are weak and next to useless, it took forever for folks to get on the bandwagon. Even now there are people stating that unless you buy from the "big names" you are wasting your money. Eh...it's all good...unless of course you are one of those types that calls people stupid if they don't immediately agree with them.
In the end, it's just a hobby.....like model airplanes, kite flying, gun collecting, you name it...and not worth getting angry and malicious about.

 

[MissGurnus]

In the end, it's just a hobby.....like model airplanes, kite flying, gun collecting, you name it...and not worth getting angry and malicious about.

I think there has to be a line where it becomes about the fishes well-being. Oscar in a 55 vs a 75? Friendly debate. Oscar in a 29? I'll put my foot down. (Yes I have heard that advice on forums and at an LFS)


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[Delapool]

One of my friends had a variation on the 'fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me'.

It was 'assume' and it makes a '***' out of 'you' and 'me'.

My only other thought was that it is good to be skeptical and cross-check information. On the other hand, don't want to be too skeptical and fixed in our views eg everyone is wrong and out to get me. (unless it's something from the government!). Hope that makes sense.

 

[Andy Sager]

Maybe, Caliban, it's because we are in different countries that we have different experiences. The European faction of the hobby was usually more advanced than us in the U.S. for a long time.
Here in the states, there are still areas where Mom & Pops are still the #1 resource for those seeking local advice. Given a choice, I'd prefer a M & P over a chain or internet store but again, that's me. But let's not beat the dead horse. To each their own. This is however, a perfect example of how one person's experience can be different from another's with the same fish, only due to their locality or time in the hobby. A great example of this is the Redtailed Shark. I can tell you all about the wild ones. Sadly, as I understand it, there aren't any wild ones left. So we today have to talk about tank raised ones which, believe it or not, are different because they were tank raised. ( I still have the TFH magazine in my collection which documented the first redtail sharks being tank bred. )

Regarding my wigglers thread on Google: I just did a google search for freshwater Angelfish and breeding freshwater angelfish, what both threads are mainly about, and neither my Wigglers thread nor the original Wigglers at last!!! thread was to be found in the first 4 & 5 pages respectively. ( Wigglers returns pages about worms and Wigglers 2 has me on the second page after the worms.) I gave up after 5 pages because let's face it, who usually digs that deep when they are new? They read what comes up first. (Or at least that's what I do. ) Considering that the original one was commented in by both hobbyist and professional breeders from this site and pretty much everything one would need to know about breeding these fish was discussed within that thread ( and was more inclusive than any 1 book or internet article I've read), if nobody told someone to look for it by name, it wouldn't have been found or searched for. THAT'S my point. The internet answers only the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your first tank. While I was working in retail stores, there were many to choose from and it was quite easy to find one that knew what they were doing just by the appearance of the store. Healthy fish look different in a tank than sick fish. But I knew about the nitrogen cycle back in the 1960s, by my pet shop owning Mentor, so why your store didn't tell you about it is a puzzle to me but then again, not every store was run by people who knew what they were doing. And this all feeds back into the basic theme of this thread: Who do you trust and who do you listen to? And Thanks, for letting me know my thread can be found through Google. I would have never thought to look for it through there.

 

[Gregcoyote]

One thing folks don't like to hear is that a reef is a marathon run, not a sprint. A truly stable system can take years. There are few short cuts. That also distresses newbies. Success is just a bottle of magic elixir away. Not.


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[Caliban07]

Maybe, Caliban, it's because we are in different countries that we have different experiences. The European faction of the hobby was usually more advanced than us in the U.S. for a long time.

Here in the states, there are still areas where Mom & Pops are still the #1 resource for those seeking local advice. Given a choice, I'd prefer a M & P over a chain or internet store but again, that's me. But let's not beat the dead horse. To each their own. This is however, a perfect example of how one person's experience can be different from another's with the same fish, only due to their locality or time in the hobby. A great example of this is the Redtailed Shark. I can tell you all about the wild ones. Sadly, as I understand it, there aren't any wild ones left. So we today have to talk about tank raised ones which, believe it or not, are different because they were tank raised. ( I still have the TFH magazine in my collection which documented the first redtail sharks being tank bred. )



Regarding my wigglers thread on Google: I just did a google search for freshwater Angelfish and breeding freshwater angelfish, what both threads are mainly about, and neither my Wigglers thread nor the original Wigglers at last!!! thread was to be found in the first 4 & 5 pages respectively. ( Wigglers returns pages about worms and Wigglers 2 has me on the second page after the worms.) I gave up after 5 pages because let's face it, who usually digs that deep when they are new? They read what comes up first. (Or at least that's what I do. ) Considering that the original one was commented in by both hobbyist and professional breeders from this site and pretty much everything one would need to know about breeding these fish was discussed within that thread ( and was more inclusive than any 1 book or internet article I've read), if nobody told someone to look for it by name, it wouldn't have been found or searched for. THAT'S my point. The internet answers only the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your first tank. While I was working in retail stores, there were many to choose from and it was quite easy to find one that knew what they were doing just by the appearance of the store. Healthy fish look different in a tank than sick fish. But I knew about the nitrogen cycle back in the 1960s, by my pet shop owning Mentor, so why your store didn't tell you about it is a puzzle to me but then again, not every store was run by people who knew what they were doing. And this all feeds back into the basic theme of this thread: Who do you trust and who do you listen to? And Thanks, for letting me know my thread can be found through Google. I would have never thought to look for it through there.

Perhaps there a many differences that I am unaware of in the US. Why is it so that people still turn to mom and pop stores? Sometimes it's because people buy fish for the wrong reasons, their daughter wants a goldfish, because they are relaxing, the Sharks look cool etc etc. it's only when they die they begin to ask questions...but as time goes on more and more people will pick up their phone and do a little research before they invest.

Anyways each to their own as you say

Btw you have to type in the exact title of your thread to find it my point is is that if it had been called something more generic..'how to breed angel fish' and the information is well enough received, eventually the hits would take your link to the top. Most fish questions you type in a search engine mainly give links to forums like this.


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[Mebbid]

Wow! Such a good thread!

The only thing I can offer is to tell people to question "What qualifies the person giving the advice, to be giving advice?" While I understand that sites such as this one are here and open for all to post, is that really a good thing, especially to a newbie? Personally, I'm not so sure.

I personally think that the forums are an excellent thing for the hobby. I will use myself as an example of why.

I have always been fascinated by fish and always wanted a fish tank. When I was 13 (15 years ago) A small 15ish gallon hex tank was given to me for christmas. I went to the fish store and did exactly what many new people were told, fill it, wait for a day, and then add fish. There were no mom and pop LFS in my area. Every single time all my fish would die and then I would empty the tank bleach it, and put it away for a few months before trying again. I gave up after a while and then tried again when I was 19 and moved out of my parents house (again no new information) and the same thing happened of course. I ended up giving it one last try in a larger tank where I bought a pair of jeweled cichlids (1" per gallon and it was fine) which promptly murdered everything in the tank when they bred. I managed to keep just the male alive for years.. I don't know how.

Then 2.5 years ago a good friend of mine moved in with me and saw my tank and decided she wanted to keep fish and I decided to give it one last try. That was the time I found this website and learned just how horribly I was doing things. If it wasn't for Aquarium Advice I wouldn't be in this hobby at all.

Yes, I am still a relative newcomer to the hobby. But I have spent an obscene amount of time researching, conversing, and learning; most of which would have been much more difficult without forums such as this.

I'll admit, I often find myself skeptical when a newcomer comes bearing advice to a forum they just joined. It's a bad habit I need to stop. I must agree with Andy, just because some guy with 4000 posts says something doesn't make it to be true.

How about someone with 11,000 posts *flex*

I am guilty of the exact same thing, but I take that all as part of getting to know people. That's just how it works in life. If you've been working a job for years and a newbie comes in and tells you that you're doing things wrong then of course you're going to be skeptical and ask for some qualifications. There's nothing preventing a person from going to a forum and proclaiming to be an expert in some field and use big words to make himself seem smart when he doesn't actually know anything.

If you truly know what you're talking about it will come out in time and people will accept you with open arms much like has happened with Andy.

I'll just add one little snippet. I've found a few people on here to be my "go to" for specific questions regarding specific circumstances. Rather than post a thread and risk opinionated derailment? Simply pm them with the question. Hasn't failed me yet. Now I wouldn't recommend seeking special attention with constant pms. It's always nice to have that ace in the hole!

I kind of do that. I will start the threads asking the questions and then send out a PM to ask people to check out my thread. Without the discussions how will other people learn?

Sadly, as I understand it, there aren't any wild ones left. So we today have to talk about tank raised ones which, believe it or not, are different because they were tank raised. ( I still have the TFH magazine in my collection which documented the first redtail sharks being tank bred. )

There was actually a small wild population of red tailed sharks found in an out of the way river last year or so

 

[Delapool]

One thing folks don't like to hear is that a reef is a marathon run, not a sprint. A truly stable system can take years. There are few short cuts. That also distresses newbies. Success is just a bottle of magic elixir away. Not.


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Why's that out of interest? Is it just stuff has to grow into a population or something. One day I intend to get rid of another couch and get a SW fish tank.

 

[Brookster123]

How about someone with 11,000 posts *flex*





I kind of do that. I will start the threads asking the questions and then send out a PM to ask people to check out my thread. Without the discussions how will other people learn?

There was actually a small wild population of red tailed sharks found in an out of the way river last year or so [/QUOTE]

I have many more and I still don't know what I'm talking about post count can be misleading.. I've read some excellent posts from someone new to the forumn, I've also read a reoccurring slurry of doodoo info from someone with a few thousand posts. Cross referencing is key! Couldn't be any easier to Google something these days.. it's the reading part that some may be afraid of heh.. true on the threads andy! I hope a few of mine have saved people a few bucks and clumps of hair!

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[Andy Sager]

I think the bottom line is that some on these forums want to help and some just want to see their names in print and what's sad is that we can't or don't know who is which until after the damage is done. That's about all I was trying to bring out.

As for the wild Red Tailed sharks: YIPPEEEEE Glad to hear it. Hopefully, only a few will be kept in tanks to strengthen the tank bred lines and the environment where they are will be kept free of development and pollution so that they have the needs necessary to survive the ages. Habitat destruction will be the downfall of more species than the aquarium hobby I'm afraid.

Lastly, regarding the Mom & Pop shops, in the U.S., they were the backbone of the hobby and in many cases, fish keeping wouldn't exist here had it not been for the M & Ps. Maybe that's why I am so passionate about them as I grew up in a time where there were many and when I was in business, many of them were my customers so I knew who I was dealing with and they were, for the most part, a fairly highly educated bunch when it came to fish keeping. Compared to what I see today, it's like comparing the ol' Apples to Oranges thing again.

As Brookster said, Hopefully some of our posts have saved some lives, money and hair. That's why I came here in the first place. ( Thankfully, I still have my hair. )

 

[PoppaRyno]

This discussion pinpoints why im always nervous abt posting. I get quite frustrated, and even mad for a bit, i had to adjust. We all need to remember that nothing is guarenteed. Not even our ways 100% of the time. And i just hope readers and followers understand that as well. Im horrible at explaining myself, but im getting better because i want to help. Everyone should always know that its doubtful anyone is purposely trying to give you bad advice in our hobby.

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[ImACoolguy]

This discussion pinpoints why im always nervous abt posting. I get quite frustrated, and even mad for a bit, i had to adjust. We all need to remember that nothing is guarenteed. Not even our ways 100% of the time. And i just hope readers and followers understand that as well. Im horrible at explaining myself, but im getting better because i want to help. Everyone should always know that its doubtful anyone is purposely trying to give you bad advice in our hobby.

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+1 I often find myself second guessing the info I read nowadays in fear of it being incorrect. I've been chewed out more than once and makes me wonder how much I read is truth.


Caleb

 

[Gregcoyote]

Nobody is perfect. We operate in a environment where there is still much to be known. The basics haven't changed much though. Using forums has been as effective, for me, as the piles of books and magazines I use to pour over to find answers.


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