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Old 07-02-2015, 10:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gregcoyote View Post
Funny, I kept myself housed during college by raising thousands of FW fish and some importing at my fish farm back in the 70's. Angel fish was our speciality, had maybe 50 breeding pairs. I and my friends did the angel fish thing clear into the 90's. We supplied about a four state area and our own retail store. Farm had about 200, 20 gallon long tanks that I built and about 15,000 gallon in pools we setup for live bearers.


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Old 07-03-2015, 01:54 AM   #22
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I agree with this whole thread. I myself am only a teenager and a hobbyist of 3 years. I look up to people like Andy who can prove their knowledge with success and facts. I don't even keep angelfish and I have been reading "wiggliers 2" since day one because there is more to that thread then breeding angelfish I aspire to be that great.
Being on the forum I have learnt lots I believe that a I sort through the right and wrong pretty well.

Thank you all who are hear to better the hobby.


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Old 07-03-2015, 02:17 AM   #23
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I think some of the 'problem' is that fishkeeping has suddenly become so much more popular as it was 40-50 years ago. I placed problem in inverted commas because is that really a bad thing? It like most things really. When something starts out originally the 'masters' hone their skills and ply their trade. There is passion and they are proud, things get done properly. As time progresses and popularity increases that very essence can become lost. Even more so where a quick buck can be earned. This doesn't also mean that the original methods and skills cannot be improved over time either (technology and science)

With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

Sometimes I have read books that contain so 'old practices' that are well outdated and I sort of feel embarrassed for the author, what we do now will change in time and someone will have the same feeling about the way we do things. The Internet is not a bad thing, this forum is not a bad thing. People that are not willing to adapt or be open to changes in their philosophies can be bad things. People that force their opinion can be bad things. This forum is called aquarium advice 'an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action.....take it or leave it and don't be upset if it is the latter. A person has the right to make up their own mind, learn by their mistakes and hone their own skills.


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Old 07-03-2015, 02:39 AM   #24
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I think some of the 'problem' is that fishkeeping has suddenly become so much more popular as it was 40-50 years ago. I placed problem in inverted commas because is that really a bad thing? It like most things really. When something starts out originally the 'masters' hone their skills and ply their trade. There is passion and they are proud, things get done properly. As time progresses and popularity increases that very essence can become lost. Even more so where a quick buck can be earned. This doesn't also mean that the original methods and skills cannot be improved over time either (technology and science)

With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

Sometimes I have read books that contain so 'old practices' that are well outdated and I sort of feel embarrassed for the author, what we do now will change in time and someone will have the same feeling about the way we do things. The Internet is not a bad thing, this forum is not a bad thing. People that are not willing to adapt or be open to changes in their philosophies can be bad things. People that force their opinion can be bad things. This forum is called aquarium advice 'an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action.....take it or leave it and don't be upset if it is the latter. A person has the right to make up their own mind, learn by their mistakes and hone their own skills.


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Well said, Caliban!

I agree with you. My take on given advice on threads is that it is up to the OP to decide on what he or she wants in the end. There are plenty of great aquarists to read from and learn from--some are even on this forum. With good research and dedication, I think that an aquarist can accomplish his/her goal(s). With a forum, you are going to get mixed views--it's really unavoidable. Mixed views can be either be good or bad; good in that they can offer the OP a broad range of directions to go in, or bad in that it could confuse the OP and they could in end up going in a wrong direction. I think that AA is great, and I wouldn't leave it for another forum--I do get on TPT occasionally to find info or PM people that are not on AA. In the end, a forum is what a forum is, a small community of people. I'm just glad that this one is a good one. I joined a weightlifting forum once, and they were a bunch of jerks and it wasn't a friendly community at all haha.
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Old 07-03-2015, 01:33 PM   #25
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With technology comes the Internet and that's when things become a little trickier. All the skewed information of generations can surface but new information can be found. It's up to the reader to decide what is true and what is not. Those that take one persons word as gospel are just as helpless as the person giving the wrong advice.

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While I understand this is the way things are today, this is the part of your comment that I have issues with. How does someone, walking into a new scenario ( in this case, fish keeping) , getting all this information ( good and bad) supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Think back to the first day you had a fish tank. You walked into a store ( I presume ) and told someone behind the counter that you wanted a fish tank and asked what you needed to do. They told you what you needed and you assumed they were right because they were working in the store and keeping the fish. But you didn't know for sure if that person's info was right or wrong. You just assumed it was. Now, you are taking that person from the store and turning them into a huge community or internet where there is no filter or visual proof of what's being said is true and expecting the person, the new fish keeper, to know what is right and what isn't? It makes no sense. They are new so they don't know what is right or wrong nor have the ability to do so. Not that they are dumb or stupid, they are NEW. While the internet is full of information, it only answers the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask. Which brings us back to the thread topic, you have to be skeptical of what you learn and who you learn it from. So, where in here, besides this thread that I know of, is this comment shown to a new fish keeper?

Don't get me wrong, I love that the hobby is back in popularity. I have been in it for over 50 years now and still going strong. I saw the decline in the 70s & 80s ( Darn you PONG and Pacman !!!! ) so it's nice to see people, especially younger people, getting back into it. However, if you think about it, every piece of new technology ( computers, tablets, phones, video games, etc) come with an instruction manual or URL to get the instructions on how to use their new product. It even comes with a troubleshooting section for the "what ifs" . There really isn't one of those for keeping the fish. There used to be books all about starting the aquarium. Now, you get told to look on the internet which brings us back full circle to the whole issue on what and where do you get your trusted information from. Acceptance of under performance is the catalyst of disaster. Maybe that's an old hippie philosophy ( Score one for us old folks who lived through the 60s ) but I think it still applies today. That's all I'm sayin'
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:27 PM   #26
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I'll just add one little snippet. I've found a few people on here to be my "go to" for specific questions regarding specific circumstances. Rather than post a thread and risk opinionated derailment? Simply pm them with the question. Hasn't failed me yet. Now I wouldn't recommend seeking special attention with constant pms. It's always nice to have that ace in the hole!

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Old 07-03-2015, 07:02 PM   #27
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While I understand this is the way things are today, this is the part of your comment that I have issues with. How does someone, walking into a new scenario ( in this case, fish keeping) , getting all this information ( good and bad) supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Think back to the first day you had a fish tank. You walked into a store ( I presume ) and told someone behind the counter that you wanted a fish tank and asked what you needed to do. They told you what you needed and you assumed they were right because they were working in the store and keeping the fish. But you didn't know for sure if that person's info was right or wrong. You just assumed it was. Now, you are taking that person from the store and turning them into a huge community or internet where there is no filter or visual proof of what's being said is true and expecting the person, the new fish keeper, to know what is right and what isn't? It makes no sense. They are new so they don't know what is right or wrong nor have the ability to do so. Not that they are dumb or stupid, they are NEW. While the internet is full of information, it only answers the questions you ask it. It doesn't tell you what questions to ask. Which brings us back to the thread topic, you have to be skeptical of what you learn and who you learn it from. So, where in here, besides this thread that I know of, is this comment shown to a new fish keeper?



Don't get me wrong, I love that the hobby is back in popularity. I have been in it for over 50 years now and still going strong. I saw the decline in the 70s & 80s ( Darn you PONG and Pacman !!!! ) so it's nice to see people, especially younger people, getting back into it. However, if you think about it, every piece of new technology ( computers, tablets, phones, video games, etc) come with an instruction manual or URL to get the instructions on how to use their new product. It even comes with a troubleshooting section for the "what ifs" . There really isn't one of those for keeping the fish. There used to be books all about starting the aquarium. Now, you get told to look on the internet which brings us back full circle to the whole issue on what and where do you get your trusted information from. Acceptance of under performance is the catalyst of disaster. Maybe that's an old hippie philosophy ( Score one for us old folks who lived through the 60s ) but I think it still applies today. That's all I'm sayin'

Hmm Andy, I feel like you are trying to tell us something without actually saying it? What is the answer then? Go back to mom and pop stores? Those times are gone forever...reminisce and move on

I bought my first tank from one of these places and yes I made a huge mistake with just about everything. Could it have been avoided? Not easily. I was only 15 and there wasn't many alternatives that I knew about. Fast forward 15 years where the Internet is a well oiled machine. My second tank was purchased off a website similar to Craig's list after researching which compatible fish I wanted to keep and which size/shape tank was suitable for them. I then researched a suitable filter of which my choice was made easier by countless buyer reviews. I learned about the nitrogen cycle....not from a mom and pop store...but from the Internet and chosen which method to use having weighed up the pros and cons of both after reading people's thoughts and experience of both. I did EVERYTHING apart from buy the fish using the Internet. People don't use the Internet because people tell them to its because books are old and the Internet is new. Ironically I bought Diana walstad's book recently, thank god for the Internet for bringing it to my attention. I used a tool that everyone has access to to make the right choices including this very forum that I am typing on now.

Do I feel sorry for myself for listening to the mom and pop store? No. That very experience made me better at the hobby. That's what hobbies are about aren't they? practicing, honing, experiencing peaks and troughs, learning, progressing, adapting and most importantly sharing. That IS the cycle. There are new people that come here everyday, those that seek advice, information and opinion before they set up their tanks and those that come here after they have listened to the wrong people but as time moves forward the latter will become the minority and as long as this forum exists (granted to us by the birth of Internet) then the more people will want to and be able to collate as much information as possible so as to make an informed decision which is ultimately always going to be there own.

FYI: if you type the name of your wiggles thread in on Google it is the forth link down. The information is out there you just have to find it and use very basic skills to determine if this information is right for you or not.


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Old 07-03-2015, 07:42 PM   #28
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See what works for the masses- generally this is the right way to go. Occasionally you'll find copied and pasted incorrect info (like not too long ago, when you googled pectinia, it came up listed as a small polyp scleractinian). The arguments I caused when i stated it was a large polyp coral were crazy. statements like "dude...mine eats large hunks of meaty foods" were discounted because it was listed as such on every website.
The same with the lighting threads- how long did it take for people to believe you could grow corals under those Taotronics-like fixtures? Because some alleged "guru" somewhere decided to write a LED lighting article stating they are weak and next to useless, it took forever for folks to get on the bandwagon. Even now there are people stating that unless you buy from the "big names" you are wasting your money. Eh...it's all good...unless of course you are one of those types that calls people stupid if they don't immediately agree with them.
In the end, it's just a hobby.....like model airplanes, kite flying, gun collecting, you name it...and not worth getting angry and malicious about.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:51 PM   #29
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In the end, it's just a hobby.....like model airplanes, kite flying, gun collecting, you name it...and not worth getting angry and malicious about.



I think there has to be a line where it becomes about the fishes well-being. Oscar in a 55 vs a 75? Friendly debate. Oscar in a 29? I'll put my foot down. (Yes I have heard that advice on forums and at an LFS)


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Old 07-03-2015, 07:52 PM   #30
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One of my friends had a variation on the 'fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me'.

It was 'assume' and it makes a '***' out of 'you' and 'me'.

My only other thought was that it is good to be skeptical and cross-check information. On the other hand, don't want to be too skeptical and fixed in our views eg everyone is wrong and out to get me. (unless it's something from the government!). Hope that makes sense.
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