When getting forum advice

[Reefer James]

Skepticism is a method, not a position. It can be defined as a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment. As a Skeptical Reefkeeper, you decide what is best for you, your animals, and your wallet, based upon critical thinking, not just because you heard someone else say it. The goal of this series of articles is not to provide you with reef recipes or to tell you which ideas are flat out wrong or which products really do what they say they do or which claims or which expert to believe. The goal is to help you make those kinds of determinations for yourself, while developing your saltwater expertise in the face of sometimes overwhelming or conflicting advice.

Skeptical Reefkeeping | Rich Ross

After reading many of the responses on forums for years I have come to the conclusion a good majority of people giving advice do not actually know what they are talking about. You have to slide through the pages of information and choose which responses are accurate. It has been much more beneficial for me to read books.

I encourage all reef keepers to familiarize themselves with Richard Ross and do some back reading on his articles in reef keeping mag about skeptical reef keeping

 

[PB_Smith]

Skeptical Reefkeeping | Rich Ross

After reading many of the responses on forums for years I have come to the conclusion a good majority of people giving advice do not actually know what they are talking about. You have to slide through the pages of information and choose which responses are accurate. It has been much more beneficial for me to read books.

I encourage all reef keepers to familiarize themselves with Richard Ross and do some back reading on his articles in reef keeping mag about skeptical reef keeping

I agree and notice a lot of folks "reading recipes" yet have not a clue what is actually going on as the cake bakes.
Sure you can maintain a great system by following recipes, but you can have an even better one and enjoy it more if you understand all the why's and wherefores' of the science underlying the hobby.

for example, after shopping and researching as much as I could about protein skimmers, I concluded that consumer production models are relatively inefficient and compensate for it by recirculating the water as much as possible through the skimmer whenever a slow, long contact time with a prolonged "bubble life span" is much better and I could build my own, better, more efficient one myself for a fraction of the cost.
and it works like a champ

Whether it's a 1/2 gallon beta bowl or a 12,000 gallon marine system, the same basic principles and biology applies, it just takes a little understanding and creativity to make it work to your advantage without completely emptying your bank account.

 

[Gregcoyote]

It is up to the reader to decide what's relevant and what's not, same as watching the news. And reading books on reef keeping which is what I had available before the Internet. Same as the forums, there were many junk opinions and some were from well meaning and schooled individuals. Not much really changes, except now you get a even broader range of right and wrong opinions. Everyone that takes the time to post or replies when someone asks for help or congratulations, is a fellow reef keeper. That doesn't make them always right, I sure am not. But they are trying to help in a hobby where there are always multiple paths to the same goals and that there is still a whole lot we don't yet know. Standing up as "the expert" is a bit like claiming your the fastest gun. There is always a long line of people faster than you. But the best part is how much faster the hobby is evolving now that the flow of information is so fast. Peace.


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[fishenthusiast]

It is up to the reader to decide what's relevant and what's not, same as watching the news. And reading books on reef keeping which is what I had available before the Internet. Same as the forums, there were many junk opinions and some were from well meaning and schooled individuals. Not much really changes, except now you get a even broader range of right and wrong opinions. Everyone that takes the time to post or replies when someone asks for help or congratulations, is a fellow reef keeper. That doesn't make them always right, I sure am not. But they are trying to help in a hobby where there are always multiple paths to the same goals and that there is still a whole lot we don't yet know. Standing up as "the expert" is a bit like claiming your the fastest gun. There is always a long line of people faster than you. But the best part is how much faster the hobby is evolving now that the flow of information is so fast. Peace.


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?? Yes! The same holds true for planted tanks too.

 

[Andy Sager]

I've pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating. There are certain aspects of the tropical fish hobby ( both freshwater and saltwater) that are absolute vs opinions. Science vs experience if you will. So a hobbyist needs to separate the information they are getting into the 2 categories: Science, opinion. The problem comes down to, more in freshwater than salt, where the experience is coming from. Water, around the U.S and the world, is not all the same. So when one person uses tap water with a low ph, gh, kh & nitrate levels for example, proclaims that "All I do is use my tap water and the fish do fine.", it really doesn't apply or help someone whose tap water is high in all those values. But how does a new hobbyist know that? This has been where the internet has been a deficit more than a benefit and the decline of the Mom & Pop pet shop has severely hurt the hobby in my opinion. How can someone read an article, even from a highly experienced and intelligent author, then discern what is relevant to them? The best advice is "local" advice. People doing what "you" are doing in the same area you are doing it in. This opens a whole new can of worms as the people now doing what you are doing are mostly chain stores with employees who don't really know what they are doing ( in many cases.) So how do we help new hobbyists get the RIGHT information over the internet? I'm asking because I don't know the answer. The only thing I can offer is to tell people to question "What qualifies the person giving the advice, to be giving advice?" While I understand that sites such as this one are here and open for all to post, is that really a good thing, especially to a newbie? Personally, I'm not so sure.
Obviously, these are my opinions. As someone who really wants the hobby to regain a better base for the hobbyist, I felt they should be shared. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees is okay. I just hope they are qualified to make that judgement.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Andy, I agree. But it's the same with anything technical. Sure, fixing my car has more absolutes than fixing my reef tank, but anyone who does a bit of research will find trends of logic that reveal themselves. This hobby has two ways to go, those that don't really want to learn anything and want someone else to deal with the fish tank, to those that want to know as much as possible. As in life, there is always somebody pushing bad advice. This forum is no different than visiting multiple LFS and getting a varied opinion at each stop. But after a while, you learn who to trust.


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[Andy Sager]

True Greg. It's just frustrating to me, as a former retailer, a trusted authority and a looooooooooong time hobbyist, that there is little to help the newbie become an experienced hobbyist without the pains of excessive loss due to following bad advice. In the internet age, where we are faceless dots and dashes, who do you trust? Before, I could have a customer come to the store and say " This worked or didn't work" or "How do you suggest I do it here vs doing in another area?" and I could explain the differences. Now, I have to answer more questions with even more questions only to have someone post an answer that is only true in certain instances but they don't explain that. I guess I am either too old or old school. lol

 

[Gregcoyote]

I'm 63 and have had LFS's and tanks since I was a teenager. When I first joined this forum, my ego got bruised daily until I finally dropped out. Dary coaxed me back and I am glad I stayed. Having worked with some of the "experts" it quickly became obvious that what we don't know exceeds what we do know. That makes this hobby exciting and frustrating at the same time.


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[mr_X]

Another point I might add is that folks on one forum seem to take a stand on what is fact, just because some alleged guru may or may not have said so and then it becomes the norm there, even though it might very well be incorrect. Then they come preaching these adopted, "facts" perhaps because their abrasiveness wore out their welcome at other places, and don't like it when everyone disagrees. They quickly resort to personal attacks and bashing. Hardly the "quality help" a newcomer needs, don't you agree?

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm 63 and have had LFS's and tanks since I was a teenager. When I first joined this forum, my ego got bruised daily until I finally dropped out. Dary coaxed me back and I am glad I stayed. Having worked with some of the "experts" it quickly became obvious that what we don't know exceeds what we do know. That makes this hobby exciting and frustrating at the same time.


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Well I am glad I got to virtually meet you. I'm not that far behind you (57) and last year, celebrated 50 years as a hobbyist. I also spent over 40 years "in the biz". I don't have an ego issue today. I used to in my teens however. Many of the people I either worked for or were in competition with used to describe me as "thinking my "stuff" didn't stink." The fact was that I was more experienced at that age than most people because of who I had had who mentored me. Not to say there wasn't more to learn but I was definitely ahead of the curve ( as I've been described by others) and treated that way by my employers.

I came on this site originally to give out the straight info and correct a lot of what I was reading. There was a lot of "anti-Andy" posts in the beginning but I had the national and international experience to back up what I said so thankfully, that didn't last very long. But I have seen the downslide of the hobby. In fact, I don't know if you are following my "Wigglers 2" thread but I have started another Angelfish hatchery just because those same people who were in my past and are still in the biz, have told me how bad the fish have gotten and there hasn't been the quantity or quality available since I closed my last hatchery in the mid 1980s. That tells me things are not all honey and roses in the fish hobby and that saddens me. I will say, I am amazed at the wild fish that are available today as they weren't available or some even discovered when I was importing. (I'm actually a little jealous of those who are importing them now. New fish were always the highlight of any new shipment. )So there is always something new to learn. I'd just like to figure out a way to help those new hobbyists get the information we all know now so they don't need to kill the same fish to learn that we already killed. Maybe that's not possible? I don't know. But I'll keep trying

 

[Andy Sager]

Another point I might add is that folks on one forum seem to take a stand on what is fact, just because some alleged guru may or may not have said so and then it becomes the norm there, even though it might very well be incorrect. Then they come preaching these adopted, "facts" perhaps because their abrasiveness wore out their welcome at other places, and don't like it when everyone disagrees. They quickly resort to personal attacks and bashing. Hardly the "quality help" a newcomer needs, don't you agree?

ABSOLUTELY!!!
I always ask, " If 1 million people repeat wrong information to 1 million other people and they repeat it and so on, does it make the information right just because millions of people heard it? That's my gripe with the internet but that's me.
As for the bashing, I was typing about that as you were posting and YES, it's a shame that people resort to that. But that's where my stubbornness comes into play. I can prove with pics or books pretty much everything I say. Someone needs to be able to do the same to change my mind.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Engineers are always right. or at least we think so. Personally, I have come to be able to gage what I can and cannot do. For example, I gave up on dragonets years ago after seeing so many hit the toilet. When I forget these lessons, I and the live stock suffer. You can get into a instant argument over that. I studied surgeonfish on the reef for decades. When I built my tank it was with that insight in mind. But what I learned and have practiced places me in the tang police abuse cycle. I have given up commenting on the perfectly happy 12" tang in the 75 gallon. If I can't give a fish it's normal life span, or longer, I don't consider it a success.


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[fishenthusiast]

Well I am glad I got to virtually meet you. I'm not that far behind you (57) and last year, celebrated 50 years as a hobbyist. I also spent over 40 years "in the biz". I don't have an ego issue today. I used to in my teens however. Many of the people I either worked for or were in competition with used to describe me as "thinking my "stuff" didn't stink." The fact was that I was more experienced at that age than most people because of who I had had who mentored me. Not to say there wasn't more to learn but I was definitely ahead of the curve ( as I've been described by others) and treated that way by my employers.



I came on this site originally to give out the straight info and correct a lot of what I was reading. There was a lot of "anti-Andy" posts in the beginning but I had the national and international experience to back up what I said so thankfully, that didn't last very long. But I have seen the downslide of the hobby. In fact, I don't know if you are following my "Wigglers 2" thread but I have started another Angelfish hatchery just because those same people who were in my past and are still in the biz, have told me how bad the fish have gotten and there hasn't been the quantity or quality available since I closed my last hatchery in the mid 1980s. That tells me things are not all honey and roses in the fish hobby and that saddens me. I will say, I am amazed at the wild fish that are available today as they weren't available or some even discovered when I was importing. (I'm actually a little jealous of those who are importing them now. New fish were always the highlight of any new shipment. )So there is always something new to learn. I'd just like to figure out a way to help those new hobbyists get the information we all know now so they don't need to kill the same fish to learn that we already killed. Maybe that's not possible? I don't know. But I'll keep trying

This is gold! You sir, are one to look up to for young aquarists. I've been in the hobby for 11 years, and a lot of trial and error has helped me learn. I've read through dozens of articles and books, and have tried to separate fact from fiction. I joined the forum two years ago and have a learned a lot, but I've also learned who to trust the most too.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Funny, I kept myself housed during college by raising thousands of FW fish and some importing at my fish farm back in the 70's. Angel fish was our speciality, had maybe 50 breeding pairs. I and my friends did the angel fish thing clear into the 90's. We supplied about a four state area and our own retail store. Farm had about 200, 20 gallon long tanks that I built and about 15,000 gallon in pools we setup for live bearers.


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[ImACoolguy]

I'll admit, I often find myself skeptical when a newcomer comes bearing advice to a forum they just joined. It's a bad habit I need to stop. I must agree with Andy, just because some guy with 4000 posts says something doesn't make it to be true.

As a younger aquarist (20 in July) I find myself looking up to you older folks with years of experience under your wing.

Point being, I should be just as skeptical to you guys as I am to a newcomer. Just because they are new doesn't mean it's not sound advice.


Caleb

 

[Gregcoyote]

Somebody earlier noted that there are things we all agree on and others that we don't. It is because in some instances no one has shown it has to be done a certain way. Many different approaches still end in success. An example: if I began posting that my coral grew explosively if I added diet coke everyday, and there was science I could quote behind it and it worked for everybody, adding diet coke dosing would become as basic as using pure water when making SW. That's the process the hobby has operated under since the first under gravel filter. The hobby tends to vet its most important contributions, like LED's, by being very skeptical until proven and even then there are still detractors. But in the end it is always just the opinion of the poster and should be viewed as a effort to share information. Unless they act like a perfect jerk.


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[Delapool]

I must confess I don't really have too much of an issue. Newcomers complain about old timers and old timers complain no-one listens to them, mods will cheerfully tell you how much work a forum is (which I'm sure it is!). Any advice presented can be googled for further information either with in this forum, or to be skeptical, outside the forum. I take my hat off to people that start threads and that post replies, it's being willing to share an experience.

On local issues it would be a simple matter to adjust a sticky to request additional information eg tap water chemistry results from the local council.

Buuuut - how often would this get followed? For example rarely does the sick fish what-to-post sticky get followed. That's fine if a specific question (and I put that in as I'm slack myself and have to post one ?). However, too many times someone posts a question, gets an answer and then disappears without either posting results or answers to follow up questions.

So I'm not sure what can be done. I tend to share my time and experience (for what it is worth) as well as my interests to give something back to the people that shared theirs. I don't have a lot of experience with forums so I don't know how the 'forum experience' can be improved I guess.

 

[sinibotia]

I always try to remember what I know vs what I don't. Even after keeping fish for a long time I'll take the advice of others when they show me they know what they're doing. Even with loaches, my favorite group of fish, I have to try to remind myself that other people may know just as much as I do. I'm still young and being cocky in my own knowledge comes naturally, it's an instinct I have to fight

 

[coralbandit]

I like what Andy ,Dela and Sini said!
I'll add;
Listen to the old guys!
Most are not in this hobby because they have been killing tropicals for the last 35+ years!
Eventually you need to qualify/vet if you lack the experience/judgement.
Makes me so happy I know who to ask!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Now I'll throw a real wrench in this whole conversation, I've known some older people, in the biz as well, that I wouldn't ask directions to the street from so age is not always the best criteria either. I think it's more about current and former experience that helps qualify a person's ability to accurately advise. To be honest, another reason I got back into breeding fish was because I was helping someone on this site breeding his Angels because he was getting nowhere with the advice he was getting here and on other sites. I had not kept an Angelfish in a home aquarium since the mid 1980s but I had him follow my instructions, with no deviations, which were the same instructions I had been using since the 1960s , and he was overloaded with fish in no time. Then he had an issue with a new fish that I couldn't remember ever encountering before which got me thinking, if I was going to be able to help people with today's fish, I needed to be keeping them today as well. The rest , as they say, can be found in my Wigglers 2 thread.