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Old 12-12-2012, 01:15 AM   #41
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I'd say that 99% of all opinions offered by anybody on most any matter in this "hobby" are opinions, speculation, here-say, or any number of notions which deviate from the standards of scientific scrutiny.

One would almost have to throw out the entire playbook to achieve any sort of universally accepted, empirically founded scientific basis of opinion.

It seems to me the aquarium world is by and large a place of inductive reasoning which flaunts itself as some sort of unquestionable pseudo-science. Unfortunately with no respected official standard present in the "hobby" world, this sort of logic (or lack there of) perpetuates itself rampantly and without check.

Induction is a useful thing, but now when attempting to formulate any sort of testable methodology or repeatable, measurable cause-effect relationship. Far too often we see people saying "my fish lived fine in the X conditions, so they must be perfect and acceptable for that organism". People try too hard to deduct reasons and rules from their gradual experiences.

Such though processes lend themselves to virtually no concept of proper experimentation or variable analysis, and end only in the results which the observer hopes to imply. While in many instances they might coincide with the results which would be generated by an inductive process, more times than not the "truth" is largely at odds, or entirely unrelated.


I have nothing to say on the particular matter at hand as I have never researched, kept, or cared to know much of anything about goldfish, but I would venture that applicable literature and data is indeed lurking out there somewhere in the shadows of academia
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:20 AM   #42
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It has nothing to do with being impartial, or anyone else in the thread. How long does it take a fancy goldfish to get 10", if ever?

Perhaps you missed the world record holding oranda named Bruce....

Giant goldfish swims into the record books | News | Practical Fishkeeping

Bruce aside, three of my fancies are all around @10in. My local AGA breeder also has a few monsters that would even make my fancies look small but he also raises his fish in ponds.

No disrespect, Jeta, but I have to agree with Hukit that any fish, whether its a goldfish or cichlid or whatever species, that is 8 or 10 or 12+inches realisitcally does not belong in a 20g tank.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:29 AM   #43
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I'm not following with your 'if ever' remark. THEY WILL get that big if cared for properly. I'm not saying all of them will but how will you know if you don't take care of them?
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:41 AM   #44
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Perhaps you missed the world record holding oranda named Bruce....

Giant goldfish swims into the record books | News | Practical Fishkeeping

Bruce aside, three of my fancies are all around @10in. My local AGA breeder also has a few monsters that would even make my fancies look small but he also raises his fish in ponds.

No disrespect, Jeta, but I have to agree with Hukit that any fish, whether its a goldfish or cichlid or whatever species, that is 8 or 10 or 12+inches realisitcally does not belong in a 20g tank.
Should we all plan around having world record sized fish in our tanks? In that case most of us need to upgrade tomorrow. I think it's a little more feasible to err on the side of 'bigger is better' in most cases, but I usually plan on average sizes when considering how to stock my tanks.

If you agree that a 8-12" fish realistically doesn't belong in a 20g tank, then what makes it advisable to keep that same fish in a tank that is only a few inches longer and the same width?
A 20H is 24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 3/4
A 29 is 30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 18 3/4


It's been a general consensus on this forum by many people including several participating in this thread that a 20g-30g is enough for a single fancy goldfish, are we changing that standard now?
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:45 AM   #45
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I'm not following with your 'if ever' remark. THEY WILL get that big if cared for properly. I'm not saying all of them will but how will you know if you don't take care of them?
Jeta does have fancies and I am sure he takes excellent care of them.

However, my point is they do grow large, alot larger than most people realize or even care to consider. The majority of their growth also happens over a very short frame of time in comparison to other fish species. As a goldie lover, I wish they received the respect and consideration that any other larger species garners.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:48 AM   #46
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Jeta does have fancies and I am sure he takes excellent care of them.

However, my point is they do grow large, alot larger than most people realize or even care to consider. The majority of their growth also happens over a very short frame of time in comparison to other fish species. As a goldie lover, I wish they received the respect and consideration that any other larger species garners.
I'm sure he does take great care of his fish. I would like to think everyone that is on the forum does. But like you said, people often get the wrong impression of goldfish and they go in bowls. It's just sad.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:50 AM   #47
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Is it sadder that some goldfish end up in bowls, or that an entire community based around biology is relatively ignorant of scientific standards

Although I suppose we all have our own priorities.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MrPillow
I'd say that 99% of all opinions offered by anybody on most any matter in this "hobby" are opinions, speculation, here-say, or any number of notions which deviate from the standards of scientific scrutiny.

One would almost have to throw out the entire playbook to achieve any sort of universally accepted, empirically founded scientific basis of opinion.

It seems to me the aquarium world is by and large a place of inductive reasoning which flaunts itself as some sort of unquestionable pseudo-science. Unfortunately with no respected official standard present in the "hobby" world, this sort of logic (or lack there of) perpetuates itself rampantly and without check.

Induction is a useful thing, but now when attempting to formulate any sort of testable methodology or repeatable, measurable cause-effect relationship. Far too often we see people saying "my fish lived fine in the X conditions, so they must be perfect and acceptable for that organism". People try too hard to deduct reasons and rules from their gradual experiences.

Such though processes lend themselves to virtually no concept of proper experimentation or variable analysis, and end only in the results which the observer hopes to imply. While in many instances they might coincide with the results which would be generated by an inductive process, more times than not the "truth" is largely at odds, or entirely unrelated.

I have nothing to say on the particular matter at hand as I have never researched, kept, or cared to know much of anything about goldfish, but I would venture that applicable literature and data is indeed lurking out there somewhere in the shadows of academia
An essay to agree with the above poster that most people don't use scientific data when responding to posts? It always concerns me when the post is longer than the underlying message.

For all this talk about fish hobbyist using inductive reasoning, you're doing the same while explaining their behavior. Is this not conjecture that strong inductive/deductive reasoning is somehow the cause for the lack proper experimentation? Perhaps there are other more practical reasons as well such as time, money, space and value.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:02 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post
Should we all plan around having world record sized fish in our tanks? In that case most of us need to upgrade tomorrow. I think it's a little more feasible to err on the side of 'bigger is better' in most cases, but I usually plan on average sizes when considering how to stock my tanks.

If you agree that a 8-12" fish realistically doesn't belong in a 20g tank, then what makes it advisable to keep that same fish in a tank that is only a few inches longer and the same width?
A 20H is 24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 3/4
A 29 is 30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 18 3/4


It's been a general consensus on this forum by many people including several participating in this thread that a 20g-30g is enough for a single fancy goldfish, are we changing that standard now?
Would an 12" pleco be suitable for these tank measurements? I wouldnt personally keep a 12" of any species of fish in such small accomodations, including a fancy. My personal opinions, nothing more. 20-30g for a single fancy is a general recommendation with the caveat that it may not be suitable long term. Perhaps using a more pond based calculation of 10g per inch of fish would be more suitable but I think most people would have major issues even contemplating this notion so its not worth more than a brief mention.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:10 AM   #50
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So now we are asserting that I must reference a case study to make the claim that this niche is without scientific backing? Perhaps you could spend 10 minutes reading the forum and deduce that for yourself. Don't try inducing though or you will end up with a sore brain

I very well am deducing when it comes to my observations about the lack of scientific merit to most "theories" presented in this community. Perhaps we need a refresher course on what exactly induction and deduction are? I am tempted, but I would rather not bore you with a lengthy essay lest I venture too far down the road of being logical.

A scientific experiment cannot, by very nature, be deductive. Perhaps a few centuries ago, but the standards have evolved over time. We are past the stage of observant deduction. A survey could very well be deductive, but a survey itself does not make an experiment. Experiments are inductive, through and through.

I do not doubt that time, money, and spare are extremely limiting factors in the enactment of "home experiments" as it were, and most academic institutions have things far more important to care about than goldfish stocking feasibility. I personally, however, would debate you far and wide on the "value" aspect of such statements. As I stated, priorities differ among individuals and that is to be expected, but I personally would hold logic, critical standards of science to be far more valuable than many of the things debated on this forum. You are free to care about what you wish, I am merely expressing where I stand on the matter.


Perhaps if I kept my posts shorter then you might be able to deduce a different emotion which strays from the realm of concern
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