Who among us has a perfect tank? (vent)

[MacDracor]

I've said for years that we need an Internet standard "sarcasm font" among other things.
Sometimes we will go into a thread with the best of intentions, and things get taken way out of context or blown out of proportion. It's very easy to begin writing with the mindset of gentle advice, and by the end of it, it's a rant. A thick skin helps.
That being said, sometimes we (including myself here) will see the same mistakes made so many times that it is very difficult not to get upset. For example, temperature, food, and filtration are all very well and good, but no goldfish belongs in a 20 gallon. I'm not trying to single out the OP here, but it's part of the thread. It certainly sounds like a better setup than some I've heard of, but still inadequate for the fish's long term health.
It can be difficult to make statements like that without sounding confrontational. But some things need to be said. The important thing is to not instantly get your back up, and allow it to be a discussion, not a fight.

 

[Ljk09]

I +1 about people being too sensitive. I read your original post and jlk's post and I didn't see anything wrong with it. I actually didn't see him be rude, hostile, or whatever you wanna call it. We are all adults here, no one needs to cry over spilt milk. Or a goldfish in the wrong tank.

 

[jetajockey]

I've said for years that we need an Internet standard "sarcasm font" among other things.

This would be nice.

Sometimes we will go into a thread with the best of intentions, and things get taken way out of context or blown out of proportion. It's very easy to begin writing with the mindset of gentle advice, and by the end of it, it's a rant. A thick skin helps.
That being said, sometimes we (including myself here) will see the same mistakes made so many times that it is very difficult not to get upset. For example, temperature, food, and filtration are all very well and good, but no goldfish belongs in a 20 gallon. I'm not trying to single out the OP here, but it's part of the thread. It certainly sounds like a better setup than some I've heard of, but still inadequate for the fish's long term health.

How does being in a 20g affect the long term health of a single fancy goldfish?

 

[HUKIT]

How does being in a 20g affect the long term health of a single fancy goldfish?

Really? I think you already know the answer, I could name a few.

 

[Ljk09]

Really? I think you already know the answer, I could name a few.

I could name 10 that's wrong with the set up. Lol

 

[BakerBoy17]

Really? I think you already know the answer, I could name a few.

I thought with fancy goldfish, it was 20 for the first, and 10 for each additional one?

 

[jetajockey]

Really? I think you already know the answer, I could name a few.

Okay, I think it's a fair question.

I could name 10 that's wrong with the set up. Lol

Please do.

 

[Ljk09]

I thought with fancy goldfish, it was 20 for the first, and 10 for each additional one?

It is. But with the mollies and guppy or whatever else she has in the tank she is over stocked. And incorrectly stocked but that's already been stated.

 

[ktomminello]

See there- you're not alone... I think I'm probably guilty of seeming like a snob sometimes and I know I don't mean it. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, sometimes people get false information from the pet store/ lfs and come here because they honestly care enough to open themselves up to criticism. Here is my ugly side with the rebuttal.
When you ask a question without giving the full details you open yourself up to criticism by the aquarium forum Dudley Doright God of fish police throat jumping, new one tearing closed minded aquarists who believe that everyone not playing by their particular teachings are horrible fish abusers. You should know this when you post and just don't read the ones that you know in your heart aren't relevant, because all there is here is a bunch of opinions, and you know what they say about those
I'm more of an experience sharer/ story teller, I've been corrected and criticized, but hey, this is the interweb after all, lol.
Don't let it get to you, weed out the people with their noses in the air and just chat with those that are actually answering your question.
I had a small black moore, a medium fantail and a medium comet in a 20g for a little while because mom was building her first indoor pond. You sound like you have it under control.... Laugh it off

 

[HUKIT]

Okay, I think it's a fair question.

I'm not going to debate minimum stocking requirements as this is leading away from the original thread but you and I both know a 8-10+" fish that lives for 15-20 years has no business in a 20g tank. You can say what you will for the mases to look impartial but I'm calling shenanigans on that opinion.

 

[BakerBoy17]

It is. But with the mollies and guppy or whatever else she has in the tank she is over stocked. And incorrectly stocked but that's already been stated.

But if you were to read her post, she already stated that once it has grown a little more, she would be able to get a bigger tank. So I think that critiquing on an issue that an answer has already been established for is one of the many problems the OP is ranting about. And I'm with Jeta, I would love for you to come up with reasons why this is wrong.

 

[ktomminello]

I thought with fancy goldfish, it was 20 for the first, and 10 for each additional one?

Considering fancy goldfish, if given the chance to grow in a larger more natural habitat, can get upwards of 12 inches a 20g isn't ideal for a forever home, but I've seen people do worse- at least there's some consideration in set up medium and flow...

 

[BakerBoy17]

Considering fancy goldfish, if given the chance to grow in a larger more natural habitat, can get upwards of 12 inches a 20g isn't ideal for a forever home, but I've seen people do worse- at least there's some consideration in set up medium and flow...

Actually, the mutation in most fancy goldfish limits their growth either way, making their max length dramatically shorter then the original common goldfish is.

 

[Ljk09]

But if you were to read her post, she already stated that once it has grown a little more, she would be able to get a bigger tank. So I think that critiquing on an issue that an answer has already been established for is one of the many problems the OP is ranting about. And I'm with Jeta, I would love for you to come up with reasons why this is wrong.

Okay, I think it's a fair question.

Please do.

1.goldfish are cold water fish. Not tropical fish. Their temps are preferred to be in high 60's to low 70's. they can tolerate warmer waters for short periods of time but causes stress and possibly stunts growth

2 Molly's prefer to be in groups of 4 or more because they are schooling fish.

3 Molly's are found in warmer waters, not like the goldfish.

4 fancy goldfish can grow to unimaginable sizes. I've seen 2 orandas bigger than my hand and I'm not a tiny hand individual. Would you like to be put in a tank that's only a few inches wider than you are in length?

5 guppies also prefer to be in groups of more than 1 fish

6 sometimes plecos are caught sucking the slime coat off of goldfish. I'm not 100% on the specific species that does this but I'd want to be more safe than sorry.

If you give me some time I'm sure ill figure out some more. But those are what I can come up with now.


But please feel free to correct or critique my post in anyways. You won't hurt my feelings any.

 

[jetajockey]

I'm not going to debate minimum stocking requirements as this is leading away from the original thread but you and I both know a 8-10" fish that lives for 15-20 years has no business in a 20g tank. You can say what you will for the mases to look impartial but I'm calling shenanigans on that opinion.

It has nothing to do with being impartial, or anyone else in the thread. How long does it take a fancy goldfish to get 10", if ever? It is a little off the direct topic, but it's not that far off, because varying opinions are part of what the rant is about.

What's the issue, stunting? At what point does a fancy goldfish get stunted (more than it already is, since most have been bred to grow almost in a semi circle rather than laterally)? Water quality, maybe?

Is it cruel to keep a fancy goldfish in a 20g? Why? How are we defining 'long term'? A few years is a pretty long term, as well as 20+. If we really want to get all ethical about it there could be a plausible argument made that we should all boycott fancy goldfish for some of the freakish monstrosities that are commonplace in the hobby today. Many get up in arms about balloon rams and balloon mollies, and this is the same thing on an extreme level.

Are we still throwing opinions around or is there some actual data that we can work with?

 

[ktomminello]

Yup, opinions, my friends, this thread is pretty much arguing with itself to argue... Over someone who has (at this time) has a small assorted stock that aren't necessarily normal tank mates- here's one for the hounds chomping at the bit- tattooed and dye injected fish- go! Lol

 

[jetajockey]

1.goldfish are cold water fish. Not tropical fish. Their temps are preferred to be in high 60's to low 70's. they can tolerate warmer waters for short periods of time but causes stress and possibly stunts growth

Who determined that, exactly? Do we have any case studies on this at all? It's hard to give a wild example since these fish have never existed in the wild in this form. If you look at the common carp it's pretty much spread over every zone in the US including subtropical. Here's a quote from a document about the Prussian carp, which is supposedly the closest relative of goldfish and where they were derived from.
http://www.frammandearter.se/0/2english/pdf/Carassius_gibelio.pdf

Habitat(s) in which
species occurs
The Prussian carp is a warmwater fish, and thrives best in shallow
lagoons and estuaries (with a depth of just a few metres), shallow
pools and lakes, and slow-flowing rivers with muddy beds. The species
is associated with dense vegetation and feeds mainly on benthic
organisms. Like other members of the carp family, Prussian carp is a
freshwater fish, but can cope with salinities of up to around 3 psu, and
possibly as high as about 6 psu. It can also

2 Molly's prefer to be in groups of 4 or more because they are schooling fish.

They aren't, although I can say I've seen them in large schools in the wild, but that's not unusual for many smaller fish species.

3 Molly's are found in warmer waters, not like the goldfish.

see above. Interesting to note, both seem to be estuarine, I've found mollies in full fresh and full strength seawater, I don't know if prussian carp are considered to be euryhaline as well. I have no idea how to convert PSU to SG so I don't know exactly how brackish they are talking in that link.

4 fancy goldfish can grow to unimaginable sizes. I've seen 2 orandas bigger than my hand and I'm not a tiny hand individual. Would you like to be put in a tank that's only a few inches wider than you are in length?

We do it all the time with oscars and other species of fish. What's the common recommendation for a 12-14" oscar, a 12" wide 55g, or better, a 18" wide 75g, still only a few inches to spare. Just pointing out kind of a double standard that is sometimes held in the industry.

5 guppies also prefer to be in groups of more than 1 fish

I agree, I was primarily talking about the goldfish in a 20g thing more than that exact stock list.

6 sometimes plecos are caught sucking the slime coat off of goldfish. I'm not 100% on the specific species that does this but I'd want to be more safe than sorry.

I've heard reports of this with a few species of fish, discus and angels also come to mind. I've not had it happen with mine, or know anyone personally who has. Even still, with the amount of people who keep plecos with slow/large bodied fish, and the relatively small number of reports, I don't think it's a very common event or even worth being cautious over, personally.
If you give me some time I'm sure ill figure out some more. But those are what I can come up with now.

But please feel free to correct or critique my post in anyways. You won't hurt my feelings any.

Your wish is my command Nothing personal at all, I like and respect everyone in this thread, I just have a differing view of some things is all.

 

[Lt.]

tattooed and dye injected fish- go! Lol

!!!evil&ugly!!! Lol

 

[HUKIT]

Are we still throwing opinions around or is there some actual data that we can work with?

I'd wager over ninety percent of your "expert" responses to threads on this site are based your opinions without scientific data to back it up, so how would this be any different than those?

We all know what the old saying about opinions is, they're like...well you know the rest.

 

[jetajockey]

I'd wager over ninety percent of your "expert" responses to threads on this site are based your opinions without scientific data to back it up, so how would this be any different than those?

We all know what the old saying about opinions is, they're like...well you know the rest.

Sure they are, most of it is opinion after all. But when someone says 'X setup just won't work', it's a good idea to be able to efficiently explain why it wouldn't work, especially when someone questions it.

Note that I said 'we' in that statement, I was implicating myself as well.