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Old 11-24-2003, 09:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MT79
what does that mean? B/c he is a chemist he understands the universe? Einstein is famous because he TRIED to, but he couldn't explain everything. Sum up in your own words what a "creationist" believes in. Help me understand.
Hehe... what I meant was this:

My friend does not believe fully in my creationist views. He tends to side more with you, MT79. He's obviously a smart cookie too.

We're still best buds because I don't take offense from his views, and he doesn't take offense from mine.


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Old 11-24-2003, 11:16 PM   #32
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Absolutly Snapcrackler , I enjoy a good debate! Like BrianNY said healthy debate is, well, Healthy! Now back to what the thread is about....

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Old 11-25-2003, 02:08 PM   #33
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Wow! I saw that argument spiralling out of control in my mind... but what a resolution! That kind of healthy approach typifies this site. Nice!

(Scopes aside... ) I think the matter of whether fish evolved first in FW or SW (our present conception of FW and SW) is moot. When fish (i.e. in this case vertebrate sea creatures) first came into being during the Cambrian Explosion (about 530 mya), water conditions were hugely different than they are at the present. Heck, the continents as we know them didn't exist. What I am sure of is that these creatures first occured in the large oceans that surrounded pre-Pangea. Not necessarily SW (as we know it) oceans, though...

So, I think it's not quite correct to say that marine fish have had more time to develop, because FW fish are almost certainly off-shoots of a common ancestral group of Cambrian vertebrates. After all, FW and SW fish didn't spontaneously come into existence in the two environments. Morphology (body shape) is sufficiently similar (look at FW Angelfish torsos and SW batfish torsos) to indicate common ancestry...

And, salinity and other ion concentrations in the world's oceans have changed hugely over even the last thousands of years (deglaciation causes a freshening of the seas, glaciation an increase in salinity), so I think it's fair to say that fish have had to adapt in all environments to changing conditions quite regularly over history.

I tend to agree with TheNewGuy's statement that a fish's coloration is dependent upon the environment it lives in. Is this a cop-out, just another chicken-and-egg argument? I don't think so... The coloration of their environment, mainly the plants and other primary producers around them do vary in color depending upon the minerals and light available to them. How do I explain neon tetras??? Their brilliant blue could well imitate the color of reflected light that bounces off of the rivers they live in. This could be a poweful adaptation to protect them from wading and diving birds. Also, given the fact that light is refracted under water and shimmers, this could be an added protection from predatory fish underwater--a predator could believe it was seeing a reflection of light, not prey.

Just some ideas...
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Old 11-25-2003, 02:11 PM   #34
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To add to madasfish's post.. I've read that the neon's blue strip is actually to help find each other in the dark environments they live in. Neon's generally live in small streams and such in SA, under dense jungle canopies that let very little light in. The flash of blue is supposively a form of identification.
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Old 11-27-2003, 09:44 AM   #35
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Are you ready guys???

The first vertebrates were jawless fish of the class Agnatha which includes present day lampreys and hagfish. The actual species was a fish called Ostracoderm which was mainly a FW fish dating back to the Cambrian. It became extinct at the end of the Devonian some 350 million years ago.

www.askjeeves.com, type in evolution of fish

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