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Okay... I'm now convinced that doubling the Ray 2 to get PAR close to 80 is not the answer to get these plants red. I've been reading and researching LED's and I think the LEDs on the Ray2 aren't as full spectrum as I'd imagined (and hoped) -- this is evident in the coloration or lack thereof. In fact, i read LEDs are highly monochromatic, emitting color in a narrow frequency range...so i think I'm starved of red spectrum. I also recall reading that to get white light, the LEDs are usually blue with a yellow phosphorous coating to emit white light... So i don't know how this impacts the spectrum, but i think the lack in coloration in my plants that reds are needed (possibly green and blue). So I'm rethinking the strategy in lighting before i ditch LED and go for T5HO. I might try replacing the 2nd Ray 2 (it's going to the 60-F anyways) for a Finnex Monster Ray RGB, or Current Satellite LED+ (white + RGB), or Fluvals new offering that has dedicated reds, blues, 3000k, 6000k, and 15000K.

So this was 15 days ago...


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Then i added a 2nd Finnex Ray 2:

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And then arrived to my parents' house to this jungle mess! All green! Ummm, is that cyanobacteria in the bottom left?

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Wow that really got green! (In a bad way) Have you asked Finnex for a spectrum graph of their Ray 2? Just to see what spectrum the LEDs use?
 
Yeah its here...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189944

I suspect that because red has a harder time penetrating depth, what little red is in the spectral graph is diminished in this taller tank (21" high). The Ray 2 on my 6g has no problem with red plants, but that tank has the light suspended with a shorter distance from light to sub of only 11".

I noticed a new trend in LED fixture manufactures, they're incorporating dedicated red diodes (640nm -- among other colors) in their fixtures. Check out the planted fixture in buildmyled.com and the new Fluval led fixture for instance...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+10704+25742&pcatid=25742

Also finnex is working on a Ray 2 with whites and reds (take their FugeRay-R as an early example).

I could be totally be wrong with the whole spectrum thing.. But i think pretty strongly of this theory and i may test it soon! :)
 
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Notice red at the tips of some plants that had reached the surface...umm, yeah i have a bit of an algae problem too :(



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Yes, that is cynao so it would be wise to get some Erythromycin to treat the tank with before it gets bad.

Are you still going to get rid of the path?

I can't remember are you doing CO2 or Glut on this tank? If Glut what are you dosing at?

I recently increased my phosphate levels to 5.0ppms and my color is even better and plants are coloring up even down low in the tank. While there is no doubt light spectrum/par is important I still feel the proper nitrate/phosphate levels are a key to getting good color. I also am not dosing any extra iron just what the tank gets in the daily micro mix.
 
Yeah your theory does make sense Brian, having a tall tank is definitely a hassle in the lighting department... Like Rivercats said, what are your phosphate/nitrate levels?
 
Your strong greens are a sign of a healthy tank. All things constant, swapping lights will not increase reds other than the immediate kelvin adjustment. What are your phosphates and nitrates levels? GH level? You can get your plants red at the cost of their overall well being. A route I do not recommend, but HEY, to each their own.

Your drive for 'REDs' has been around for ages. I've found it amusing throughout the years as the crowd put the blame on various factors (high light? co2? EI? and now spectrum?). Switching one thing and claiming they found the solution, unknowingly amongst themselves they've created an imbalance with other various factors optimal for changing green plants red.

I do not know the light output of the fixture you possess and I do not know your dosing methods but... pre-adding that second fixture, you were doing great and your plants show it.
 
Yes, that is cynao so it would be wise to get some Erythromycin to treat the tank with before it gets bad.

Are you still going to get rid of the path?

I can't remember are you doing CO2 or Glut on this tank? If Glut what are you dosing at?

I recently increased my phosphate levels to 5.0ppms and my color is even better and plants are coloring up even down low in the tank. While there is no doubt light spectrum/par is important I still feel the proper nitrate/phosphate levels are a key to getting good color. I also am not dosing any extra iron just what the tank gets in the daily micro mix.

I read that Erythromycin can harm beneficial bacteria, is that not true? What about just manual removal?

I'm injecting co2... and I forgot my test kits at my house to let y'all know the phosphate and nitrate levels.
 
Your strong greens are a sign of a healthy tank. All things constant, swapping lights will not increase reds other than the immediate kelvin adjustment. What are your phosphates and nitrates levels? GH level? You can get your plants red at the cost of their overall well being. A route I do not recommend, but HEY, to each their own.

Your drive for 'REDs' has been around for ages. I've found it amusing throughout the years as the crowd put the blame on various factors (high light? co2? EI? and now spectrum?). Switching one thing and claiming they found the solution, unknowingly amongst themselves they've created an imbalance with other various factors optimal for changing green plants red.

I do not know the light output of the fixture you possess and I do not know your dosing methods but... pre-adding that second fixture, you were doing great and your plants show it.

Thanks for your input Scott. The PAR (output) of 2x Finnex Ray 2's is close to 80 micromoles (μmol) at about 18" from light to substrate. 80 to 120 is considered high light. The reason I question the spectrum theory so much is because in my 6g rimless tank, I'm also using a Finnex Ray 2 but only 10 to 11" distance from light to sub, which gives me about 60 PAR. Both this 26g and my 6g use the same PPS-PRO dosing, pressurized co2, substrate, and tap water as source... only discernable difference is height... and my 6g gets color from stems like rotala Colorata and Ludwigia Red with no problems. This has me scratching my head.

But I'll have to test phosphates and nitrates soon... I forgot my kit at my house.

Edit:
I posed this question on the Ray 2 (before I added the second fixture) and why there's a lack of colors developing in the stems to Hoppy on TPT, and he responded as follows... "Several people have noted that plants that tend to have reddish colors in the leaves do best with high light, and/or light that includes a lot of red in the spectrum. The Ray2 you are using gives you around 40 PAR units, which is low medium light, plenty for growing any plants, but possibly not enough, nor with enough red in the spectrum to get good red colors. If you use two of those you would certainly have high light, and that might be all it takes to get the red colors, but it might still not be adequate because of the limited amount of red in the spectrum."
 
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Yeah your theory does make sense Brian, having a tall tank is definitely a hassle in the lighting department... Like Rivercats said, what are your phosphate/nitrate levels?

I'll have to get those tests soon.. forgot the kit at home :(
 
I read that Erythromycin can harm beneficial bacteria, is that not true? What about just manual removal?

I'm injecting co2... and I forgot my test kits at my house to let y'all know the phosphate and nitrate levels.

Erythromycin doesn't harm BB but what it can do is cause an ammonia spike if there is alot of cyano that begins to die off. Plus you only dose 5 days. You can do manual removal but the bacteria is still in the tank and will often come back. By using the antibiotic your killing off the bacteria in the tank so there is none left.
 
Okay... Thanks for that! So where's the best place to obtain it? Oh and where again was that that you got the all iron root tabs?
 
Brian I can agree with Hoppy's red spectrum comment because when I first added the AquaticLife fixture the metal halides had 10K bulbs and some crappy (IMO) T5HO bulbs. I did get red/pink but the colors looked washed out and not rich/deep. I first changed my halides bulbs out to 6000K and I quickly noticed a difference in the reds. Plants lost that washed out look and started getting a richer and slightly deeper red. I began changing my dosing of nitrate/phosphate and again noticed improvement. Finally I got the Geisemann 6000K bulbs and they really made a big difference since they are known for bringing out the best color in plants. It was after that I became serious about keeping my nitrates lower and have been adjusting phosphates (still doing that) to find that sweet spot where everything looks good and is very healthy. Then by trying different iron vs phosphate levels I have almost zero'd in on what levels bring out the best coloring and for me it is the phosphate levels not iron levels.
 
Okay... Thanks for that! So where's the best place to obtain it? Oh and where again was that that you got the all iron root tabs?

Any Erythomycin tablets/packets will do. I tend to use Maracyn if I need it. You can get them online way cheaper than in the store tho!

AquariumPlants.com has their own brand of root tabs and one of them is just Iron. AquaFertz.com: SUBSTRATE VITALIZATION SYSTEM
 
Thanks for your input Scott. The PAR (output) of 2x Finnex Ray 2's is close to 80 micromoles (μmol) at about 18" from light to substrate. 80 to 120 is considered high light. The reason I question the spectrum theory so much is because in my 6g rimless tank, I'm also using a Finnex Ray 2 but only 10 to 11" distance from light to sub, which gives me about 60 PAR. Both this 26g and my 6g use the same PPS-PRO dosing, pressurized co2, substrate, and tap water as source... only discernable difference is height... and my 6g gets color from stems like rotala Colorata and Ludwigia Red with no problems. This has me scratching my head.

But I'll have to test phosphates and nitrates soon... I forgot my kit at my house.

Edit:
I posed this question on the Ray 2 (before I added the second fixture) and why there's a lack of colors developing in the stems to Hoppy on TPT, and he responded as follows... "Several people have noted that plants that tend to have reddish colors in the leaves do best with high light, and/or light that includes a lot of red in the spectrum. The Ray2 you are using gives you around 40 PAR units, which is low medium light, plenty for growing any plants, but possibly not enough, nor with enough red in the spectrum to get good red colors. If you use two of those you would certainly have high light, and that might be all it takes to get the red colors, but it might still not be adequate because of the limited amount of red in the spectrum."


If you are indeed hitting 80 umol do this: make sure both CO2 and GH are high. Cut your nitrates around 6 (lower the better) and hit your phosphates below 1.

I manage our plants at our aquatic store and this is the easiest way to achieve RED. Each individual setup is different, of course. I've seen and heard it all.
 
Brian I can agree with Hoppy's red spectrum comment because when I first added the AquaticLife fixture the metal halides had 10K bulbs and some crappy (IMO) T5HO bulbs. I did get red/pink but the colors looked washed out and not rich/deep. I first changed my halides bulbs out to 6000K and I quickly noticed a difference in the reds. Plants lost that washed out look and started getting a richer and slightly deeper red. I began changing my dosing of nitrate/phosphate and again noticed improvement. Finally I got the Geisemann 6000K bulbs and they really made a big difference since they are known for bringing out the best color in plants. It was after that I became serious about keeping my nitrates lower and have been adjusting phosphates (still doing that) to find that sweet spot where everything looks good and is very healthy. Then by trying different iron vs phosphate levels I have almost zero'd in on what levels bring out the best coloring and for me it is the phosphate levels not iron levels.

One more thing... let's compare the spectral graph between the Finnex Ray 2 vs. Geissmann midday bulb.. I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but see the lacking spectrum peaks between 650 and 500nm (reds and greens)... I'll definitely try harder on the phosphate.



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If you are indeed hitting 80 umol do this: make sure both CO2 and GH are high. Cut your nitrates around 6 (lower the better) and hit your phosphates below 1.

I manage our plants at our aquatic store and this is the easiest way to achieve RED. Each individual setup is different, of course. I've seen and heard it all.

Thanks again Scott! I'll definitely try that. So you don't think it has anything to do with spectrum? I feel colors look a bit washed out and drab. Excellent for greens but at the expense of other colors unfortunately.

Also, may I ask what aquatic store you manage? :)
 
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If you are indeed hitting 80 umol do this: make sure both CO2 and GH are high. Cut your nitrates around 6 (lower the better) and hit your phosphates below 1.

I manage our plants at our aquatic store and this is the easiest way to achieve RED. Each individual setup is different, of course. I've seen and heard it all.


I agree with the CO2 being high but have found a Gh that is at least 4 is fine. I also don't agree too low a nitrate (below 10ppm) is good in the long run in higher light tanks as you can often times begin to expierence deficiencies in plants. Also phosphates aids the chemical change that plants undergo when producing the yellow/orange/pink/red coloring that protects the plant from higher light intensity. I'm not a chemist by any means but have been keeping planted tanks since the 70's and have tried every method that has popped up. All tanks are different and have different factors that influence what is needed and what I've learned over the years is not one single method works well for all tanks. I run my 220g 100% planted tank totally different and with different light and nutrient levels than I do other planted tanks I have. I feel everyone needs to try different methods with different amounts of light and nutrients to find what their individual tank needs to achieve the results they want. This is IMO part of what makes the hobby so interesting.
 
One more thing... let's compare the spectral graph between the Finnex Ray 2 vs. Geissmann midday bulb.. I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but see the lacking spectrum peaks between 650 and 500nm (reds and greens)... I'll definitely try harder on the phosphate]

Geisemann bulbs, even by AquaChems standards, give the best color on plants and are known for their good red color spectrum peaks. But I only have 4-39w T5HO bulbs on the 220g. That's not alot but I do run them 10 hours as compared to the 6 hours I run the halides. I have never found any info on the halide bulbs as for as spectrium info but then the halides gives me the light intensity penetration I need in that deep of a tank which is why I went with them.
 
I agree with the CO2 being high but have found a Gh that is at least 4 is fine. I also don't agree too low a nitrate (below 10ppm) is good in the long run in higher light tanks as you can often times begin to expierence deficiencies in plants. Also phosphates aids the chemical change that plants undergo when producing the yellow/orange/pink/red coloring that protects the plant from higher light intensity. I'm not a chemist by any means but have been keeping planted tanks since the 70's and have tried every method that has popped up. All tanks are different and have different factors that influence what is needed and what I've learned over the years is not one single method works well for all tanks. I run my 220g 100% planted tank totally different and with different light and nutrient levels than I do other planted tanks I have. I feel everyone needs to try different methods with different amounts of light and nutrients to find what their individual tank needs to achieve the results they want. This is IMO part of what makes the hobby so interesting.

If what I suggested is done I guarantee REDs. A higher gh is best if following the parameters I noted. That's not to say REDs can't be achieved under different conditions, such as you have done with a lower hardness. However, following the low nitrates, low phosphate, high gh, high light, high co2 will produce candy apple REDs everytime.

And you are 100% correct, plants will undergo distress and be prone to disorders. And you may be fighting tiresome battle with algae at some point. OP, is it worth it?
 
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