ADVICE? advisability of 48 x 18

[jdsunflower]

I'm about to select a new tank and lighting system, with Big Plans for an acid pool type arrangement with low fish load, high planting, relatively low tech, based rather heavily on my reading of Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by D. Walstad (excellent in my view but radical in some ways, or conservative, depending on your point of view!)

I started into this hobby a little backwards, having always been more interested in the plants than the fish (I do like the corys, etc, some rasboras and black widows ..Not averse to snails.) I like the nutritious clay-type plant substrate approach but find the grains a bit big for roots (eg. Flourite) but this might just be timidity...external canister, very limited fertilizing if any... (Stop me if you hear a train wreck in progress!)

I was thinking 55g this time (48 x 18), to have more room for plant growth and moderate amounts of bogwood, plus better lighting...I've done well with diy co2 injection in the past (due to luck more than experience, to be honest!), but am otherwise not knowledgeable enough to rig things to lower costs...

Several comments I've read on this site suggest the lack of depth in this type of tank can be a source of frustration for the look...I'd like to hear from more experienced aquarists re opinions/experiences...

Is it really doable to have a low-tech high plant success? (it's apparently easier to fail at this than to succeed...) Does the rich and rather chunky substrate run the risk of hurting corydora mouths? And finally, re plant choices, how do low-light plants do with higher light levels (better, or worse?) Can I use this set-up if I'll get floating plants, too?

Any help would be appreciated!
JD

 

[neilanh]

Sounds like you're doing all the right research, kudos to you.

You asked specifically about the 55g tanks. There's nothing wrong with this tank, but if you are really into the plants and wanting to make an aquascape out of your tank, it will frustrate you due to the lack of depth that tank has. The key, in most people's opinions, to successfully creating the "wow" factor with planted tanks is to create the illusion of depth in the tank. Obviously, the more actual depth that you have gives you more room to work on creating that illusion.

A standard 55 gallon tank is 48x13x20". It's the 13 inches of depth that kills you. If you're set on a 4' tank, consider a 50 gallon ( 48x18x18 ), or even better a 75g ( 48x18x20 ). It doesnt sound like much, but those extra 5 inches really do make a difference.

As far as plants, nearly all low-light plants will also thrive in higher light. But, it is doable to have tons of success with low light setups. The only frustration that comes in there is that you're limited to the different types of plants available at low light. WRT floating plants, these can easily be done as well in any setup pretty much. What you need to be cognizant of is that large groupings of floating plants will block the light from the rooted plants below it. That needs to be taken into account when planning out your plants and aquascape in the tank. It does help to create shadowed areas, which can help you create the essence of depth in your tank as well.

I don't believe that any of the plant substrates will cause you issues with corydoras. I know tons of people that keep them amidst all types of substrates, although I have no personal experience per se.

 

[neilanh]

One other note as you're continuing your research. In larger tanks, it gets far more difficult to maintain proper CO2 levels with the DIY method. If you do go low light ( < 2WPG ) then this isn't as much of a concern as with higher light setups. But still, maintaining consistant levels is key in helping to ward off algae.

 

[JustOneMore20]

I agree with Neilan, a 50g or 75g would be much better to aquascape with. I have a 55g and I'm looking to upgrade it for a 75g this summer, just for the extra 5" in width.

I wouldn't try DIY CO2 on a tank that large. You could just go low tech, as Neilan suggested. You'll likely have more problems with it than without it.

Besides Flourite, Soilmaster select is clay-based and used in planted tanks. It is inert though and has no nutrients. You can find a supplier at Welcome to LESCO.com. It would be the cheapest option IMO. Flourite is fine as well and now comes in a black color if you don't like the old red-brown color. There is also a Flourite Black Sand, which would be perfect for Cories IMO.

You could get away with minimal fertilizing in a low tech setup....around 1.5-2wpg. With a low fish load, if you go with a fair amount of stem plants, you may need to dose nitrates. Otherwise, micro fertilizing may be all that you'd need.

 

[Purrbox]

Low tech aquariums can be very sucessful and thankfully require less work. If you're not one to fiddle with your aquarium constantly, this may be the way for you. However if you really like to get in there and constantly tweak stuff, you may be better off with a high tech setup.

If you are planning to follow Diana Walstad's approach and have never tried her type of setup before, I would strongly recommend following her recipe closely the first time through. Things like using the soil she recommends instead of a plant substrate like Flourite. She is doing things a certain way for a reason, and it's usually best to get a method down before tweaking it to meet your preferences.

I'd definately recommend sticking to a long or breeder style aquarium, you'll find it much easier to light and aquascape. The biggest gripe with the standard 55 gallon is it's lack of depth making it very difficult to create a midground.

If you decide to go the higher tech route and inject CO2, I'd definately recommend pressurized CO2. It'll save your pocket in the long run, not to mention be much less frusterating to maintain consistant CO2 levels.

 

[jdsunflower]

thanks, and (more...)q's? (no rush)

Your input is much appreciated. I stumbled over your site quite by accident, and will faithfully vote AA daily from now on! I've got several more questions, but am in no hurry--thanks for any advice you might have.

Tank size and low vs high tech are dilemmas for me due to space limitations (small condo), and fear of getting in over my head with the technology. In looking over other set-ups, it's a bit daunting. As well, other than this site and books books books (I agree with some posts that it becomes procrastination after awhile!), I don't know anyone around here who enjoys this same hobby.

In prior efforts, I was using small tanks (2 ?15 gallon tanks) and I added lots of 'cheapo' hanging lights, and diy co2, and had plant growth ++ and had my small lot of fishies looking quite blissful, and especially the corys acting quite romantic with each other overall...but the whole thing imploded when I got backwash from yeast bottle into tank, and it was a tragic sight...(I still feel guilty for not knowing enough to use a simple $2 checkvalve...)

It makes sense that small tanks are trickier in that they can't absorb problematic conditions...but would you recommend a mid-sized tank first? Lots of people seem to enjoy the 30 or so gallon tanks...but I'll be honest, I'm hankering for a 55 or so gallon tank, yet don't think I can do deeper than 18" in my home.

What would you think might be the least tech-ie system that would be successful with a 48 x 18"? I do like to 'fiddle' with my aquarium, but not so much with chemistry as with landscaping and rearranging the furniture. I realize I've got mixed goals here (low-tech Amato tanks?) I like natural approaches like letting natural systems between fish and plants take care of the chemistry...

From comments so far, I'm thinking this would be
-canister filter focusing on biological filtration
-modest injection co2
-about 2000 (k?) light, ideally with one cool fluorescent and one actinic? I'll admit this is the weakest aspect of my knowledge base, as with many.
-beginner type, low to mid-light plants (I'd like floaters too)
-bogwood (I like the acid pool tannins--are they a problem, really?)


And since this is my wishlist--I'd love to keep a water level where plants could actually emerge from the water.

I worry that this will be a tank with insufficient oxygen...due to not being fully high-tech. Any suggestions about lighting would be appreciated. Should it be sealed as much as possible, or can I have light above, to allow for plants to grow out of the tank...(do corydoras and rasboras and black widows tend to leap out?)

Geez, as I re-read this I'm guessing you've answered these q's a 100 times before...my apologies!
and I do like your little s

JD

 

[jsoong]

For light choices - read the sticky (about lights & substrates) at the top of this forum for full info.

Plants like sunlight .... so actinics won't be helpful (in FW). Generally, people add actinics for the looks, but don't count it in the light level calculations. For FW plants, 6700K daylight (or full spectrum) bulbs or higher (some like the look of 10,000K bulbs) are best.

The amount of light you have will determine how high tech you have to be. If you aim for a total of 1.5-2 watts per gal, you can have a nice selection of plants without having to go CO2 & high tech.

If you like to have emersed growth, you would prob want to have a setup with an open top, maybe with light hanging from the ceiling. Then you can have a filled aquarium for those plants underwater, & still let some plants grow out into the air. An open top would not be too efficient if you do injected CO2 ... but then emersed plants get CO2 from the air ... so that might not be a problem.

Personally, I'd start with low tech (ie without CO2 & only modest ferts). If you want to, you can always add more light & CO2 later.

 

[Purrbox]

For a nice sized aquarium that is only 18" deep front to back, I'd highly recommend looking at a 40 gallon breeder. This is my dream aquarium. Wonderful for aquascaping, easy to light, small enough for me to maintain without a taller person's assistance, yet large enough to have a lot of options. I can hardly wait until I can set one up.

Since you enjoy emergent growth, I'd second the recommendation to run your aquarium open top with suspended lights. There's some really good threads lately with some neat methods for suspending lights.

It sounds like you'd prefer to stick to a low tech aquarium. For this I'd also recommend aiming for the 1.5-2WPG lighting range. You'll want bulbs with a Kelvin rating between 5000K-10,000K. Bulbs outside of this range may also work, but that range tends to be the most natural looking and most consistantly gets good growth. Generic bulbs are fine, you don't need "aquarium" bulbs.

If you decide to inject CO2 you'll probably end up having to dose more fertilizers to keep up with increased growth. Without it you can still have a very nice, if slower growing, planted aquarium. For the size aquariums that you are looking at I'd still recommend Pressurized CO2 if you go the CO2 route, to avoid exactly the disaster that happened with one of your last aquariums. It will also help avoid issues with BBA. While pressurized CO2 can be a bit intimidating at first, it really is very simple to setup and maintain.

No problem having driftwood in the aquarium, especially if you enjoy the look of tanins in the water. Makes a great surface for attaching plants.

With a canister filter it's very easy to fix any issues with insufficient O2 levels simply by adjusting the output to create a bit more surface turbulance.

 

[neilanh]

I agree with J and purr.

Either aquarium (the 40Br or the 55) will be fine, there's nothing wrong with either. You can be very successful in these with no issues.

I don't understand why you think you'll have issues with low O2 levels, I don't think that'll be the case. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about that. If you go with a non-CO2 injected setup, you can run an airstone. This will accomplish 2 things for you. 1) It will ensure you have plenty of O2 and 2) it will also maintain a consistent CO2 level in your tank for your plants. Both of these are good things and can help both your fish and your plants.

Picking your lighting will be the key to your setup. I agree that you should probably stick with < 2WPG at this point. Consider getting a 1x96W PC lighting fixture. This can easiliy be hung from the ceiling should you desire to do so and will support both your emersed and submersed plant desires. As the above stated, you'll want to stick to between 5000K and 10000K bulbs for best results.

 

[jdsunflower]

many thanks

excellent leads and advice on how to combine my various preferences--I think I have a plan!
I have read recently that our local lfs (BAl's) is deteriorating, so I'm now on a mission to locate the best plants and (eventually) fishes...Love this hobby!
keeps me out of jail.

 

[JustOneMore20]

Good info above.

If I could choose the tank for you (fun stuff, huh) I would choose either a 40 breeder or a 50g. Both are 18" wide and 3ft long. The 50g is just a tad taller. Lighting can be hard on these 3ft tanks though, with it being hard to find a low light fixture, but not impossible.

I suggest a T5 HO fixture on either. You could plan ahead, assuming you may want to go high tech in the future, and get a 4x39w T5 HO fixture, with 2 of the bulbs being actinic and 2 being daylight spectrum (so basically only 1/2 usable light for the plants). Then later on, you could replace the actinic bulbs if you wanted.....with the injection of co2.

I wouldn't try diy co2 (yeast method) on anything over 30 gallons. You honestly run into more issues on larger tanks, mainly algae issues, with yeast method. With pressurized, the initial cost is the main issue. It is low maintenance (no changing mixtures every so often) and you don't have to worry about anything getting into your tank. Regulators and needle valves are trustworthy not to get too much co2 into the tank. There are rare incidences where it somehow works its way up......but that doesn't happen often if you have good quality equipment.

Basically, you'll have more plant choices with high tech, but its a tad more work. The plants grow faster, you'll have to trim more and dose ferts. But, you can grow just about anything you want. With medium light (just 2x39w T5 HO), you'd have a fair amount of plant choices IMO, so you wouldn't be at a total loss. Lower tech is good to start out with.

Open top tanks are awesome. All my tanks are open top and I don't have many issues with fish jumping. I've only had a couple incidences and those were hyperactive fish (loaches) and one that probably got scared (rummynose tetra).

If you don't want to hang from the ceiling or from a bar, then you could get a fixture with legs to elevate it off the tank some.

 

[jdsunflower]

gracias


thanks for those excellent ideas--I'm leaning towards the 40g breeder tank, pressurized co2 and lighting at or below 2 kpg. And I would LOVE to have the problem of heavy plant growth. (I know, be careful what you wish for!)
2 q's; if a fixture has room for 4 bulbs, can you leave 2 empty (for now?)
and, the bogwood sold in aquarium stores--I assume they are not treated but only cleaned, and that corys can and will enjoy eating it a bit?
Oh no, it's almost time to go back to work!!(*&^%%)

 

[Purrbox]

Some fixtures you can leave them empty, others you can't. Some have one switch for all the bulbs, some have multiple switches. Just a matter of doing the research on the one that you're considering buying to ensure that it has the features you want.

If driftwood is sold in an LFS it's generall fine to place in the aquarium with just a good rinse. Boiling and/or soaking is recommended to reduce tanins and encourage sinking. Cories don't eat driftwood to the best of my knowledge, I believe you are thinking of the algae eating plecos.

 

[jdsunflower]

Hi K,
Your suggestions are very appreciated, and seem to really suit my tastes and preferences!
In your own 40g Breeder tank post, you describe your injection system as pressurized co2 with glass diffusor. I'm not sure if aquarists use short-cuts in descriptions and this means you've got all the bells and whistles, or if this is a mid-type injection system compromise. I find that particular aquarium very much like what I'm aiming for (admittedly it's a distant target), and would love a bit more detail on that aspect of your tank system. There are so many bits one can order, I'm not sure where I could opt out safely. I am certainly not averse to water testing every 2 days or so, for instance, I've always done this.