Advice needed with algae problem

[Barliman]

Hello. My name is Barliman and I have an algae problem.

So, after several months with little to know algae, in the last feww weeks it's really taken off in my tanks. There are three types I've spotted. Green spot, Green Fuzz, and Green Beard. It's a very Green tank.

Here are a couple of photos.

Green fuzz and green spot:

Green beard:

The green fuzz has mostly attacked my alternanthera, which was once a lovely red, now a bilious green, It seemingly came out of nowhere over the span of about ten days and mostly covered it.

The green beard is weird stuff: I've never encountered algae that grows of the substrate before. It first appeared on some drift wood months ago, but that's since vanished. However it grows in large patches on the substrate --for example at the base of my e. tenellus-- and sometimes I find patches growing amongst leaves. Am I right to suspect it likes low-flow areas?

Anyway, I ran tests on my aquarium and tap water. Here's the data:

Tap as of 8/10 (after sitting 24 hours):
PH 7.6
NH3 <.25
NO2 0.0
NO3 <= 5
GH 7-8
KH 3
PO4 0.0

Aquarium as of 8/7, after a water change (a week ago, but the readings have been stable):
PH 7.4
NH3 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 0-5ppm (and I'd bet on zero from the chart)
GH 8
KH 3-4
PO4 0-0.25
Free Iron <= 0-.1
Chelated Iron .25-.5

The test kits were an API Master kit and a Nutrafin iron test.

Hardware:
20-long tank
Aquaclear 50 and 20 filters, one at each end of the rear wall of the tank. The 50 has sponge, purigen, and biomedia. The 20 has sponge and biomedia.
Finnex Planted+ LED, on eight hours a day. Distance from light to substrate about 12 inches.
100 watt Visitherm heater
40 pounds of Eco-complete substrate.
Fertilization is liquid: I dose the whole Seachem line including Iron and follow the instructions on the bottles. (I may soon be switching to Aquarium Co-op's "Easy Green" to replace much of the Seachem and cut expenses.)
The tank gets a 20% water change every week. It's been running since February, has had fish and plants since April.

Inhabitants:
11 neon tetras
6 adult platys and a bunch of fry, soon to be moved to another tank.
5 amano shrimp
2 otocinclus
Numerous tiny snails.

Plants:
Cardamine Lyrata (grows like a weed)
Ludwigia repens (grows fast)
Hygrophila corymbosa stricta (slow grower)
Echinodorus tenellus, narrow leaf (spreading nicely)
Alternanthera reineckii roseafolia (slow grower)
Marsilea hirsuta (mostly gone)

So, I'm open to suggestions and advice. I think I've done generally well with this tank, but something is out of whack, and I'd like to get it to the pretty aquatic garden it was a few weeks ago. For now I've upped the Excel to 3ml daily to see if it will retard the algae

My theories:
Nitrogen starvation
Carbon starvation
A combination of the two
Evil spirits


Thanks much in advance!

 

[TMaier]

Evil spirits.


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[Stacey W.]

Lol TMaier! Anyway, this is what I did (advice from an awesome fish shop).
1. Decreased my lighting (from 8hrs to 6hrs)
2. Stopped all ferts until I saw deficiencies
3. Crammed packed my tank with Wisteria and Watersprite.
4. Used lots of patience

With lighting you can also create a break in the light cycle to give CO2 a chance to built up.

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[TMaier]

I have never had any issues with algae and a few months ago brown crud covered my tank. I got rid of it in a few weeks but I still think it was evil spirits. My corkscrew Val was all lost, but everything else pulled through.


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[Fresh2o]

Ouch.
What intensity are you running the 24/7? Full (100%)? Less than that? I would drop it down until you can get the ferts and carbon to adequate levels (to match the lights). In my moss only shrimp tank I don't add ferts or carbon and run the 24/7 at 10-20%.
IMO the plants are starving. Very low nitrate and phosphate. I cannot comment on the Seachem line outside of I've used Flourish Comprehensive paired with API Leaf Zone for about a year. They worked fine (no real algae issues) but I was not measuring nitrate and phosphate at the time. I then stepped up the lighting from a FugeRay to a Planted+ and went from FYI to pressurized CO2. I then went with GLA PPS-Pro dry ferts. Much more economical; I ordered a $30 kit back in DEC 2013 and I might be halfway through it as this point. I also bought a phosphate test kit. I try to keep the nitrates between 10-20 ppm and phosphate between 5-10 ppm. I run a FugeRay AND a planted plus on my 20 long (on separate timers with a 1-2 hour overlap). I used to get green spot algae when I used the PPS-Pro macro mix at the suggested concentrations (measured 2-3 ppm phosphate). I then read about a correlation between GSA and low phosphate and triple dosed it. Within weeks the GSA disappeared.
I believe the plants are starving and the algae are being opportunistic. Consider trying either PPS-Pro or Estimative Index (EI) methods of fertilization. Both basically flood your tank with nutrients. With enough carbon present, you should get good plant growth and minimal algae.
Edit: Order Metricide 14 online. A single gallon ($20?) is equivalent to 7.5 bottles of Excel volume wise and equal to 15 bottles based on active ingredient (Glutaraldehyde). Make sure it is Metricide 14 and not 28 (big and potentially toxic difference).

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[Barliman]

Evil spirits.

I KNEW IT!!!

 

[Barliman]

Ouch.

Tell me about it.

And, before we go any further, thanks for the detailed advice.

What intensity are you running the 24/7? Full (100%)? Less than that? I would drop it down until you can get the ferts and carbon to adequate levels (to match the lights). In my moss only shrimp tank I don't add ferts or carbon and run the 24/7 at 10-20%.

It's the prior model, the Planted+ with no control or ability to change the intensity. I almost sprang for the 24/7...

I wonder if cutting the lights back to 6-7 hours would have a similar effect?

IMO the plants are starving. Very low nitrate and phosphate.

That's what I thought.

I then went with GLA PPS-Pro dry ferts. Much more economical; I ordered a $30 kit back in DEC 2013 and I might be halfway through it as this point.

That would be this kit?

I run a FugeRay AND a planted plus on my 20 long (on separate timers with a 1-2 hour overlap).

Wow. That's a lot of light. How long is the photoperiod in total?

I used to get green spot algae when I used the PPS-Pro macro mix at the suggested concentrations (measured 2-3 ppm phosphate). I then read about a correlation between GSA and low phosphate and triple dosed it. Within weeks the GSA disappeared.

Hmm... Since I have the materials at hand. I might just up the dose of Seachem's Nitrogen and Phosphorus gradually to bring the nitrates and phosphates up to the levels you describe. Carbon would still be a limiting factor: I'm reluctant to take the Excel much beyond 3-4ml daily, because I don't know how sensitive Otos and shrimp are to glutaraldehyde. I may yet have to break down and either DIY or install a pressurized CO2 system, but it makes me a bit nervous to leave those unattended during the day. (Silly of me, I know. )

Meanwhile, I think I mentioned in the initial post that I had treated a patch of green beard algae with hydrogen peroxide on Sunday. Checked it today and the results were noticeable: the patch was shrinking and fading. I'm going to keep this treatment up to get rid of the worst spots.

Thanks again!

 

[Bert2oo1]

DIY isn't worth it if u ask me. I'm running medium to high light and 3bps on DIY and I chew through a batch of citric and bicarb in about 4-5 days. I'm just about to go to pressurised as it's cheaper in the long run and less to maintain


30g planted, 90g Oscar tank

 

[Fresh2o]

DIY isn't worth it if u ask me. I'm running medium to high light and 3bps on DIY and I chew through a batch of citric and bicarb in about 4-5 days. I'm just about to go to pressurised as it's cheaper in the long run and less to maintain


30g planted, 90g Oscar tank

I thought those batches were supposed to last much longer than that. Are you shutting it off during non-lighted hours? If I was ever going to get back into DIY CO2, I was going to try the citric acid method.
I did yeast based CO2 for almost a year before I switched to a pressurized setup. I was using a Finnex FugeRay over a 20 long (PAR ~45 @12"...lower end of medium lighting) so 1 bubble every 2-3 seconds seemed to work out. Here's a pic of the tank about a month before I switched to pressurized. I wanted to venture into more demanding stem plants and needed a consistent source of carbon.

I agree, it's less maintenance and probably more cost effective (after the initial purchase) going with a pressurized setup + timer.


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[Barliman]

I thought those batches were supposed to last much longer than that. Are you shutting it off during non-lighted hours? If I was ever going to get back into DIY CO2, I was going to try the citric acid method.

That's one reason I haven't set up the citric acid CO2 system I have, even though I've gathered most of the parts: I'm not home during the day to open the valve when the lights come on. (I've also read other people who say DIY can be left running at night, but I'm not comfortable chancing it.)

That's a beautiful tank, by the way.

 

[Fresh2o]

With citric acid I most likely would forget to open and close it each day. I have a hectic schedule and most days don't get to the tank until a few minutes before lights out. But at least you can control the flow rate with this method.
With the sugar+yeast method, control was based on the amounts of each at the time of setup (along with temperature). Even with a pair of 2L bottles I was getting a low bubble count. It ran 24/7. I measured pH during the day and night and there was minimal fluctuation (+/- 0.2) so I felt pretty safe with it. No fish died from excess CO2 in my tank with this method. However, I have had some casualties using pressurized CO2.
A few of the plants in the tank at the time were from Petsmart tissue culture packs, some from other AA members, and one or two from a big online plant store. If you Google "live plants Topfin", the first tank in the images section is this one.



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[Bert2oo1]

Nah I get 4-5 days max out of my mixes it's horrid. I turn it off over night and on an hour before lights each day so 9 hours a day and it just seems to burn out real quick. I get a nice steady flow tho. My lights can be very high light tho so I've decided I want to crank them up and max my co2 and fert heaps and just watch my plants explode

Although I'm not 100% that it's staying sealed. It seems to get the a level of liquid and just drain real fast


30g planted, 90g Oscar tank

 

[Momzy6]

Have you tried shutting all lights down and spot treating with hydrogen peroxide. I covered my tank a couple years ago with a sheet only left front open 2 hours at night. left it that way for about a month while I switched from DYI Co2 to a Co2 system. I worked pretty well.

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[Barliman]

Although I'm not 100% that it's staying sealed. It seems to get the a level of liquid and just drain real fast

I bet you do have a leak somewhere. All my research into the citric acid method has indicate it lasted a lot longer. Try some soapy water to see if you have a leak in the line or at a connection.

 

[Barliman]

Chemical warfare with H2O2

So, I mentioned somewhen that I was planning to try hydrogen peroxide as a means of combating the worst patches of algae. Well, I applied ~2ml a couple of days ago to a think "hedge" (that's the only way to describe it ) of cladophora ("green beard") in a corner of the tank and, 48 hours later, it's taken a significant hit. Most of the patch has died off, and the fish and shrimp have shown no distress. I'm going to start a regular program of "nuking" the worst infestations of this and the green fuzz algae while trying to get the tank's nutrients in order.

 

[TMaier]

I did a peroxide treatment once and the only casualty was my corkscrew Val. Everything else held up fine.


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[Bert2oo1]

So, I mentioned somewhen that I was planning to try hydrogen peroxide as a means of combating the worst patches of algae. Well, I applied ~2ml a couple of days ago to a think "hedge" (that's the only way to describe it ) of cladophora ("green beard") in a corner of the tank and, 48 hours later, it's taken a significant hit. Most of the patch has died off, and the fish and shrimp have shown no distress. I'm going to start a regular program of "nuking" the worst infestations of this and the green fuzz algae while trying to get the tank's nutrients in order.

I've been doing the same with a few spots of BBA in my tank but with excel. It's been a week and it's all turned white and my SAE's are munching on it. Shouldn't take long for it to die out completely.


30g planted, 90g Oscar tank

 

[Barliman]

I've been doing the same with a few spots of BBA in my tank but with excel. It's been a week and it's all turned white and my SAE's are munching on it. Shouldn't take long for it to die out completely.

Yeah, I've done the same with Excel on hair algae. Really effective.

 

[Barliman]

Update: We are on the offensive in the War on Algae

Hi all,

Thought I should update this thread with the latest results -- some good news!

First, the big bunches of green beard algae (I think cladophora) that had infested the plants along the front of my tank is almost all gone. Hydrogen peroxide is amazing! I used a syringe to inject it into the ... "patches", about 2ml per treatment. I'd leave the filter off so the peroxide would have more time in contact with the algae. Within about 48 hours of each treatment, the patch was largely gone. And my e. tenellus seems to appreciate not being choked by "weeds" anymore.

(Side note: when H2O2 is injected into water, it breaks down quickly into a water molecule and an oxygen molecule. The later floats to the top in a bubble. My fish loved chasing them, apparently thinking they were food. Fish are weird. )

With the cladophora front largely secure, I turned my attention to the green fuzz algae that had covered my once-beautiful alternanthera plants. Tried the peroxide again, but there wasn't my effect. My theory is that because the fuzz threads are so short, the peroxide doesn't stay in contact long enough -- the tangle of the cladophora "beards" tend to trap it, making it more effective.

Anyway, I next tried Excel: 4ml applied to infested leaves by syringe, filters off for 15 minutes. This worked, though more slowly (and less entertainingly) than the H2O2. Three days after the first application, the treated alternanthera leaves are noticeably clear of "fuzz." This should take a while, but I now have hopes of beating this algae. My hope after that is that, with new growth, I can replace the older stems with cuttings.

Of course, this is just "emergency surgery." The real victory will come when I get control of the conditions that lead to this outbreak in the first place. After testing and reading, I've diagnosed the problem as shortages of nitrogen, phosphate, and carbon, which has been slowing the growth of my plants in this high light (60 PAR at the substrate) environment, letting algae compete successfully.

So, I've taken two steps. First, I've switched from Seachem fertilizers (except Iron) to Aquarium Co-Op's "easy green" liquid fertilizer. My reasons were threefold:

1. Research on my own and advice at Planted Tank made me realize that Seachem's dosing instructions were geared toward low-medium light situations. By following the label, I was starving my medium to high light plants.
   
2. "Easy Green" is more concentrated, meaning fewer dosings are needed.
   
3. In the long run, assuming Easy Green does the job, this will save me money over buying the Seachem range.

It's been a little over a week since I stopped Seachem and started using Easy Green, and I have noticed a difference: all my plants are showing new growth, which they hadn't in a while.

That takes care of the phosphate and nitrogen, but what about the carbon?

Well, I've gradually worked up to double-dosing this tank with Excel, so 4ml. I may take it to 5, but I want to make sure my otos and amanos are fine with 4ml, first. I think this is starting to control the algae, as well as spurring the new growth.

Longer term, I have decided to surrender to the siren song of pressurized CO2. I think my set-up almost demands it. So, I'm saving for a GLA "paintball" regulator (with solenoid), atomizer, and drop checker. Expensive, but, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this right.

 

[Caliban07]

Hi all,



Thought I should update this thread with the latest results -- some good news!



First, the big bunches of green beard algae (I think cladophora) that had infested the plants along the front of my tank is almost all gone. Hydrogen peroxide is amazing! I used a syringe to inject it into the ... "patches", about 2ml per treatment. I'd leave the filter off so the peroxide would have more time in contact with the algae. Within about 48 hours of each treatment, the patch was largely gone. And my e. tenellus seems to appreciate not being choked by "weeds" anymore.



(Side note: when H2O2 is injected into water, it breaks down quickly into a water molecule and an oxygen molecule. The later floats to the top in a bubble. My fish loved chasing them, apparently thinking they were food. Fish are weird. )



With the cladophora front largely secure, I turned my attention to the green fuzz algae that had covered my once-beautiful alternanthera plants. Tried the peroxide again, but there wasn't my effect. My theory is that because the fuzz threads are so short, the peroxide doesn't stay in contact long enough -- the tangle of the cladophora "beards" tend to trap it, making it more effective.



Anyway, I next tried Excel: 4ml applied to infested leaves by syringe, filters off for 15 minutes. This worked, though more slowly (and less entertainingly) than the H2O2. Three days after the first application, the treated alternanthera leaves are noticeably clear of "fuzz." This should take a while, but I now have hopes of beating this algae. My hope after that is that, with new growth, I can replace the older stems with cuttings.



Of course, this is just "emergency surgery." The real victory will come when I get control of the conditions that lead to this outbreak in the first place. After testing and reading, I've diagnosed the problem as shortages of nitrogen, phosphate, and carbon, which has been slowing the growth of my plants in this high light (60 PAR at the substrate) environment, letting algae compete successfully.



So, I've taken two steps. First, I've switched from Seachem fertilizers (except Iron) to Aquarium Co-Op's "easy green" liquid fertilizer. My reasons were threefold:

1. Research on my own and advice at Planted Tank made me realize that Seachem's dosing instructions were geared toward low-medium light situations. By following the label, I was starving my medium to high light plants.
   
   
   
2. "Easy Green" is more concentrated, meaning fewer dosings are needed.
   
   
   
3. In the long run, assuming Easy Green does the job, this will save me money over buying the Seachem range.
   

It's been a little over a week since I stopped Seachem and started using Easy Green, and I have noticed a difference: all my plants are showing new growth, which they hadn't in a while.



That takes care of the phosphate and nitrogen, but what about the carbon?



Well, I've gradually worked up to double-dosing this tank with Excel, so 4ml. I may take it to 5, but I want to make sure my otos and amanos are fine with 4ml, first. I think this is starting to control the algae, as well as spurring the new growth.



Longer term, I have decided to surrender to the siren song of pressurized CO2. I think my set-up almost demands it. So, I'm saving for a GLA "paintball" regulator (with solenoid), atomizer, and drop checker. Expensive, but, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this right.

Great news. I've never tried peroxide. Just the excel treatment. My latter doses of excel has been enough to turn BBA pink without spot treating. I ended up just removing infected leaves manually.

Ever considered dry fertilisers. Just spoon them in. May work out cheaper for you in a higher light tank.

I knew you could not ignore the co2 song much longer. It just makes sense.

Glad things are improving for you. Just gotta maintain now.


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