Algae Destroying: Using Excel/Bleach/Peroxide to KILL

[7Enigma]

Last night:

9:30pm:

Came home today and tested again with my pipet and this time some of the staghorn algae began to slough off the anubias leaf. The white BBA on the java fern is also beginning to powder off.

Went out tonight and purchased a 2.5-3" BN pleco, acclimated to the tank, and he's now comfortable stuck on the glass. Very interesting fellow, I can actually see his heartbeating through the chest. Incredibly large mouth as well for the body size. He just moved inside the large terra cotta bowl and is now feeding on the inside.

Very interesting to see my 6 large tiger barbs schooling after this adition to the tank. It's about time they get afraid of someone and stop terrorizing my lone cory and other barbs.



This morning:
Got up this morning and checked on the BN pleco. Was stationary but was pooping like crazy. I see a java fern leaf floating at the surface, but my main algae problems of interest do not appear to be touched.

Blinked for 1 second and I can't find the BN, so I assume he's found an acceptable hiding place (I don't have driftwood in the tank).

 

[Plantbrain]

I have a simple method that will work for you and most anyone experiencing a nasty algae bloom.

It's much more about "many little hammers" hitting, beating the algae back. Intergrated management approaches.

One is to look at what species is in the tank.
BBA=> CO2 issue
Staghorn=> probably NH4 related, you uprooted and moved lots of plant, did not do a water change soon after
BGA=> likely bottomed out the NO3, or have not cleaned the filter etc in a awhile
GW=> NH4 related, much like staghorn, but higher light required to induce.
Green hair algae, branched=>> lack of dosing, low CO2
Softer greens=> too much light/not enough CO2 and a little NH4
Diatoms> new tank, otto's

These are the worst offenders and you'll note all have environmenal causes.

Hammer no#1

Hammer no2#
Herbivores
Generally icing on the cake
But SAE's, rosey barbs, Amano shrimop are very effective abd each herbivore has a trade off, there are few herbivores that do everything

Hammer no#3
Blackouts: fairly effective and highly on BGA and GW

Hammer no#4
Excel, it's the only thing that kills algae and grows plants, if it does not grow a plant, do not add it. That is a good rule to follow.
Generally, folks have algae due to CO2 issues, this corrects that and kills the algae, later you can fix and tweak the CO2 gas.

Hammer no#5:
Elbow grease, manually picking, preening, fluffing, trimming, pruning off infected leaves. Cleanign everything, bleaching all equipment, tubing, rocks wood etc, anything non living you can get at and remove, rinse, add dechloro, return to the tank. Clean filter, lightly vac substrate, do large water changes(50-80%).

So a combination method:

1. Add herbivores
2. Blackout the tank for 3 days while treating
3. Do daily large water changes
4. Double dose Excel for 3 days, single dose thereafter
5. Correct environmental issue, generally CO2.
6. Dose after each water change, KNO3, KH2PO4, TMG(traces), GH
7. Manually stay on top of things and clean the tank, wipe glass etc, keep it clean.
8. Crank CO2 since you have added all the other nutrients of interest(Macros and micros are dosed to excess levels except for NH4)
CO2 will be the only variable that will induce algae at this point.
9. Reduce lighting the light if possible (1.5-2.5 w/gal range), this drives uptake of nutrients and CO2, if there is not enough, algae will grow, everytime. This will slow things down, later, after the issues have been corrected, you may add more light. You may also reduce the duration from say 10 hours to 6 for a few days also.

The main idea is to stop new algae growth, once you do that, you have the algae licked. You can then prune and trim your way out of things easily and reduce the work load.

Now........now you can use things like spot treatments such peroxide with extremely high efficacy. Tank looks better, took some work and all, but the tank will be on the mend as long as you keep up on the dosing, CO2.

Plants look better, you can stop trying to chase each new tuft of BBA growing or Staghorn and life is good.

Now the peroxide is another one of the many little hammers and is used in conjunction with, not as sole solution to algae issues.

Very few things by themselves will solve an algae issues.

If you are interested in killing algae, that is another thread really, you need to have the control to induce ertain species fo algae and grow them in all their glory. Then you squirt chemicals on them and note the responses and environment and so forth.

Few planted hobbyists are interested in this, they just want to solve their problem and have a nice planted tank.

I kill aquatic weeds for my day job and we are just starting to do pilot studies with excel on Egeria and Hydrilla, the two worst aquatic weeds in CA. No doubt, it kills them and certain species of algae.
Peroxide is also been considered but generally is poor for weeds, but not bad for algae.

Sodium percarbonate is effective for algae and dissolves into peroxide moderately slowly, it's not enough to burn plants, but kills most of the algae on surfaces, it comes in granular form, so it sinks, hits the surface and acts like the spot treatment.

It's better for ponds and where you need to scrub the slime off the rocks and sides there.

Here are a number of discussions going back years:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/hydrogen-peroxide.html

http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/4242-black-algae-removal-works.html

http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/fre...21262-horray-beat-dreaded-bba.html#post189843

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/22860-peroxide-remove-algae-what-conc-2.html

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/algae_peroxide.html

The algae in the above link is Staghorn.

That should keep you busy.

Do not get frustrated, work on all of these methods/hammers, your tank will look much better.

I have a client with a 1600 gal tank that had it entirely covered, in 3-5 days, the algae is all gone and the tank is looking super.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[current516]

I have a simple method that will work for you and most anyone experiencing a nasty algae bloom....
Tom Barr

Holy smokes. I think that's the best algae post I ever read!
Thanks!

Wish I read it a month ago. I am getting rid of my BBA as I post. It's almost gone now. Upped CO2, SAEs and Excel

 

[7Enigma]

Algae Destroying: Using Excel/Bleach/Peroxide to KILL
"I'm looking for success and horror stories using large dosing (3-6X) of Flourish Excel, hydrogen peroxide, or bleach to kill off unwanted algae. Most notably I'm interested in battling BBA/staghorn that survived a 3 day blackout in my 20gallon tank.

Please post your experiences.

For those that don't know what Excel is: It is a liquid carbon source that will supply your plants the carbon they need to grow in higher light situations. This is very important since if not enough carbon is available, but all the other nutrients for plant growth are, you will most likely have an algae outbreak.

But it also apparently has a secondary use as an algae killer. Under elevated dosing, it will kill several types of algae. My concerns lie with the trade-off of killing algae, and harming my fish (and to some extent my plants)."

If you are interested in killing algae, that is another thread really

I am now in total and utter disbelief.

 

[Guest]

I have been in total and utter disbelief since page 2.

 

[CaptnIgnit]

Come on Enigma, I know Tim's advice isn't exactly pleasing to hear and may have come off a little harsh but you are starting to act like a jerk back to him (although I did chuckle when I read the statement you listed). He has given some great advice that I wouldn't really classify as off topic. The ultimate goal is to kill the algae, he just has a different way of doing it.

I'm glad he posted as his points needed to be brought up. While I understand you want this thread to be only about peroxide and excel as ways of riding yourself of algae. Should someone stumble upon this thread I would like them to hear of other ways of dealing with algae as well.

My ultimate point is that we are all here to increase our knowledge. While his post wasn't 100% on topic, it may help (it did me) someone that reads it become a better aquarist. There is nothing wrong with that and you seem to be attacking him for it.

Anyways, I've said my peace. If you want to continue the bickering in this thread, fine, but I think most people here appreciate Tim's efforts in providing us more information.

apologies to the mods as I know I should just shut up and report the thread

 

[7Enigma]

Come on Enigma, I know Tim's advice isn't exactly pleasing to hear and may have come off a little harsh but you are starting to act like a jerk back to him (although I did chuckle when I read the statement you listed). He has given some great advice that I wouldn't really classify as off topic. The ultimate goal is to kill the algae, he just has a different way of doing it.

I'm glad he posted as his points needed to be brought up. While I understand you want this thread to be only about peroxide and excel as ways of riding yourself of algae. Should someone stumble upon this thread I would like them to hear of other ways of dealing with algae as well.

My ultimate point is that we are all here to increase our knowledge. While his post wasn't 100% on topic, it may help (it did me) someone that reads it become a better aquarist. There is nothing wrong with that and you seem to be attacking him for it.

Anyways, I've said my peace. If you want to continue the bickering in this thread, fine, but I think most people here appreciate Tim's efforts in providing us more information.

apologies to the mods as I know I should just shut up and report the thread

The ULTIMATE goal IS to kill algae, but in this specific thread that is by the chemicals mentioned in the first post. It's like saying I want a new 10 gallon tank because the only space I can put the tank has the dimensions of the 10gallon. And then everyone saying why a 20 gallon tank is so much better for the fish's health/attitude. The points for why a 20gallon are better than a 10gallon can most definately be valid, but the fact of the matter is, its irrelavent to the situation.

I specifically created a thread titled very similarly to discuss different methods of algae removal (and specifically mentioned a discussion on whether chemicals should be used or other less direct methods). It can be found here:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=86565

I have not viewed this thread. I have no interest in viewing it. It was created to give an outlet if someone wants to discuss something other than the title, OP, and/or topic in this thread. I read all the comments posted in this thread and have not seen a single example of false data or lies. I, however, have also not seen much to answer my specific questions. I've been trying to do some experiments to answer this question, and have had the help of other members doing tandem experiments, as well as, had several members relate previous experiences with the chemicals mentioned in the OP.

The links about peroxide that Tom posted in his last post are great. They *help* in discovering an acceptable level of peroxide that can be used without damaging the plants and killing the fauna. But like all the other threads and posts I've read, there was little continuity among the experiments (ie someone says I have BBA and used some peroxide, someone else says I'll try that and it worked too). That helps further the validity of a method, but NOT the specifics.

My problem is when I am told that I am being off topic in the thread that I created. There was no ambiguity in the OP, nor in the subsequent posts where I attempted to reiterate the OP. And this is after I have been warned by the moderators that I am not one to decide if other member's posts are off topic (even though I created the thread).

I'm seeing a disconnect between what is being said and what is being enforced, and am concerned...

EDIT:

And I would like to mention that this thread has now had more than 1150 views since its recent inception 9 days ago. That's more than ANY thread in this section of the forum in the most recent 5 pages. That makes me think that there is a very high level of interest, and I would assume since the title of the thread is Algae Destroying: Using Excel/Bleach/Peroxide to KILL , that a good portion (all?) of those viewers are somewhat interested in knowing about Excel/Bleach/Peroxide treatment options of actively killing algae. There's about a 100 other posts in this section (not including the sticky's) that talk about creating good conditions for the plants to outcompete the algae. I felt it would be a bit redundant, but what do I know?

 

[Lonewolfblue]

As for no controls, WHAT!?!?! The whole reason why spot treatment is so educational to me personally is that I can treat a localized area on a plant, monitor the effects, and be relatively sure that the other side of the plant was not affected. My control is the other half of the plant. That IMO is the BEST possible control since you will have near identical nutrient/light levels 5 inches away from the treatment group. You will never have this same level of variable reduction using 2 separate tanks (and frankly the same tank with dividers but to a lesser extent).

In the case of the bleach dip, yes I removed 2 java ferns from the tank, dipped them, and then put them back in the tank, but on the other side of the tank I still have 2 java ferns of relatively the same size that were left untreated (one if these is being used with spot peroxide treatment).

And if we're nitpicking, the peroxide liberates oxygen which can easily be omplexed with another oxygen (especially in a highly saturated environment such as a high light planted tank) which can be used as a nutrient to the plants, EVEN during the day when their dark cycle is active along with the light cycle.

I thank you again for posting such an informative post, but please realize we are not just dumping chemicals into the tank *hoping* we magically cure algae. There is most definately a justified hypothesis behind the method.

Well, I don't think that's a real control. Yes, you can spot treat with HP, but once in the tank, the HP goes through the entire tank. If I'm right, when it oxidizes, O2 is created from 2 single O's, and bubbles out of the tank, leaving H2O in the end. So it's like a chain reaction through the tank til all the O's have combined to O2 and bubbles out. Even with spot dosing on a leaf, you will see not only that algae being affected, but other algae in the tank as well. I just did it in my 75G, and the BBA on the opposite end of the tank also turned rust color. But I also added a bit of HP when I dosed the leaves that were more badly affected.

 

[Plantbrain]

This is very important since if not enough carbon is available, but all the other nutrients for plant growth are, you will most likely have an algae outbreak.

You mean like the BBA you have?
Is CO2 not a nutrient?
Is this not one of the main tenents I suggested? Good CO2 is a key part, 95% or more of the algae related issues, things like BBA and staghorn which are CO2 related.......

So what I've said is very much on topic using the very statements you yourself stated at the start of thread.

You even fess to it being the cause of algae, but then ignore your own advice and the advice of others.

Are you off topic on your own thread?
Would we need an algicide even if the CO2 was addressed to begin with?
BBA is inducible via CO2 concentration variations.
You merely treat the symptom, not the root cause which you yourself acknowledged was the cause(poor CO2) the very algae you now have.

I guess you cannot take your own advice.

But it also apparently has a secondary use as an algae killer. Under elevated dosing, it will kill several types of algae. My concerns lie with the trade-off of killing algae, and harming my fish (and to some extent my plants)."

You want to help your plants and not harm your fish from the sounds of it, best thing to do: grow the plants.

How is that not on topic based on the above?
Do tell.........

If you follow the advice given, the peroxide is far more effective, at a lower dose and has less impact on fish and inerts etc, you use it only once and the algae never comes back.


That is what we do as weed managers, we use the least evironmentally impacting method available to us to kill the weed and not harm the non target organisms. We use many things to beat the weeds.

Same thing here.

If you follow your approach here, ignore the CO2 ppm, you will chase every new tuft of algae around your tank for years and the plants will look terrible. You never address the root cause. BBA will keep coming back for years.

Peroxide only keeps things at bay, it does not help.
Excel does to a certain extent, but bombing the beejeesus out the tank every 2-4 weeks to kill the algae is a poor method.
Perhaps that is off topic as well?

Which method would get the most out the chemical? Your focus on one singel aspect, or the one I presented?

You are not set up to do the single focused approach because you cannot even handle the root causes, you lack the control to do such.

I'm suggesting that you first do that, then approach the peroxides, bleaches and strong oxidizers.

You have BBA and staghorn and you lack the skills to isolate the root causes, so how can you possibly think you can do algae studies and use dose responses for efficacy of various algicides? How can you compare a method when you your algae will keep coming back again and again?
How can a CO2 starved plant do well compared to one that has good CO2 ppms?

When you compare the efficacy of a treatment of an algicide on a a system, do you honestly think I'll have better success with good CO2, plant growth and stable parameters or poor CO2?

Which tank would have less impact on the non target organism like fish and plants?

Clearly the one with good CO2.
You would use less peroxide and excel to get the same effect.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[sherry]

Hey gang, get ready to tear into me, because I have tried the peroxide thing and it worked after a fashion on anubias.. then I tried the excel thing, and it worked as long as I kept to low light. But Tom is right.

Raise your co2, dose adequate constant nutrients and you won't be fighting algae to begin with. This week I suddenly saw algae much to my shock. THen I realized my co2 tank was on it's last bare dregs. Refilled the tank and the algae stopped!!!!!


I have done all of these other methods, and then I subscribed to thebarrreport.. Still I doubted. Tom insisted and over and over told me the same thing.. Tom how did you like the aromatica? It is a direct result of your methods. OH. And he insisted my macrandra would do better in the direct path of co2 mist.. well.. the day my tank was awol to be filled, the mac shriveled right up. It is recovering now that all is back and pumping. And the algae is disappearing.

I think he has been entirely on point. He is saying you are treating symptoms with chemicals when you can keep your tank in good health and not suffer at all.

 

[CaptnIgnit]

I understand you want this thread to only be about eliminating the algae but you missed my point.

And I would like to mention that this thread has now had more than 1150 views since its recent inception 9 days ago. That's more than ANY thread in this section of the forum in the most recent 5 pages. That makes me think that there is a very high level of interest, and I would assume since the title of the thread is Algae Destroying: Using Excel/Bleach/Peroxide to KILL , that a good portion (all?) of those viewers are somewhat interested in knowing about Excel/Bleach/Peroxide treatment options of actively killing algae. There's about a 100 other posts in this section (not including the sticky's) that talk about creating good conditions for the plants to outcompete the algae. I felt it would be a bit redundant, but what do I know?

There is a lot of interest, because algae is such a big problem for so many people. But lets say you are new the hobby, you stumble upon aquariumadvice.com because you have recently had an aglae problem. You see this thread "perfect!" you say. Would you rather not have Tom's advice go to that person?

I am simply trying to say that his opinion is valid and althought you don't see it as 100% on topic, it still rings true. If Tom didn't post what he did then that person would just start throwing stuff in his tank trying to kill the algae and not understand that that is not a long term fix.

You may very well understand that this isn't a long term fix but not everyone that reads this thread will. Don't attack him for being off topic when his advice is helpful and very informative.

and as for your tank analogy...We are not telling you to do the impossible (put a 20 gallon tank where only a 10 would fit). We are saying that you should consider a different shaped tank that would still fit that location.

 

[Guest]

i am one of those 'newer' people who looked at this thread with great interest and decided to participate in it, the original thread, so i am going to finish what i started.

ok 7Enigma, from my last effort, i started localized treatment with peroxide on the junk plant in my 5 gal tank. i turned off the filter and with the lights on, i applied h202 with an applicator directly to the plant. to date, the algae is dead or dying and the plant is still alive. the fish are showing no signs of illness or any problems. although the plant looks unsightly(as it did to begin with), i have to conclude first hand that the peroxide treatment does work. hope this helped your project and contributed to your thread.

 

[reefrunner69]

so i am going to finish what i started.

No, I'm going to finish what you started. This thread is locked. We will not tolerate rudeness here. The two of you are quickly numbering your days.