ALGAE: excess or deficiency?

[travis74]

To elaborate... I have a 40g. I dose EI for a 20-40g, 2x96w dual daylights and crank the pressurised co2 to 45ppm. Green algae on glass and leaves is persistent, it returns just days after finishing a 4 day blackout. I remove it all manually prior to the blackout EXCEPT from some ornamental rock. Now if all was well and balanced in the triniity of ferts/light/co2 that green algae would be kept in check correct? If it is a deficiency, could it be one component of EI? I believe I have read a statement of Plantbrains to the effect that KN03 doesn't cause algae... could increasing the dose keep it at bay? REALLY appreciate if you could relate your experiences with EI
thx[/img][/code]

 

[JDogg]

To elaborate... I have a 40g. I dose EI for a 20-40g, 2x96w dual daylights and crank the pressurised co2 to 45ppm. Green algae on glass and leaves is persistent, it returns just days after finishing a 4 day blackout. I remove it all manually prior to the blackout EXCEPT from some ornamental rock. Now if all was well and balanced in the triniity of ferts/light/co2 that green algae would be kept in check correct? If it is a deficiency, could it be one component of EI? I believe I have read a statement of Plantbrains to the effect that KN03 doesn't cause algae... could increasing the dose keep it at bay? REALLY appreciate if you could relate your experiences with EI
thx[/img][/code]

ok is it green slime algae? i.e. cynobacteria? try this like to id exact algae type http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9

if it is it probably means an imbalance between NO3 and PO4 can you test for those and give up reading?

if you are like me, i am running short of NO3 as the week goes on, but have plenty of PO4

can you give a brief run down of your dosing Schedule? what you dose, how much and how often...

 

[travis74]

the specific algae types are spot and blue-green. I have no test kit for P04. N03 is always in that grey area of 20ppm, and from what I've read the AP test kits aren't that accurate at that low range. The EI dosing schedule for a 20-40g is 1/4 tsp kn03, 1/16 kh2p04, 1/16 k2s04, each 3x a week (I do these on the same days) and 1/16tsp trace 3x a week (csm+b, and usually more like 1/4tsp because I just use the cap)

 

[rkilling1]

what happened to dosing for a 40 to 60 gallon tank?

green spot algae is normally caused by a lack of PO4's, but...

lets get a complet run down.


pH
KH
GH

still running the 6700 and 10000?

plant mass?

plant types?

you are following EI to the T?

 

[JDogg]

the specific algae types are spot and blue-green. I have no test kit for P04. N03 is always in that grey area of 20ppm, and from what I've read the AP test kits aren't that accurate at that low range. The EI dosing schedule for a 20-40g is 1/4 tsp kn03, 1/16 kh2p04, 1/16 k2s04, each 3x a week (I do these on the same days) and 1/16tsp trace 3x a week (csm+b, and usually more like 1/4tsp because I just use the cap)

blue-green and spot suggest there is soming note right with you NO3 and PO4 dosing... you realy need to pick up a phosphate test and give use a PO4 #

lets get a complet run down.


pH
KH
GH

still running the 6700 and 10000?

plant mass?

plant types?

you are following EI to the T?

yeap answer this stuff too, if you do not have the tests for GH and KH go get them.

also to save you perhaps some trouble in the future i will ask this now...

you say your CO2 is

crank the pressurised co2 to 45ppm

how do you test this?

i would also like to see the results of all the test on your tap water...
Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, PO4, PH, GH, KH

picking up these test kits are imo, very important for plant keeping

 

[travis74]

The tank is heaviy planted. I am terrible with names, I'll include a pic. PH 6.2, KH 2.5,
nitrite 0, nitrate 20 ppm (but as stated, have heard low end readings are not accurate on consumer test kits) gh 5-6, all on the ap test kit. Dosing the trace is where I deviate from EI, because I use the cap, so I probably dose twice as much as I should.

 

[JDogg]

The tank is heaviy planted. I am terrible with names, I'll include a pic. PH 6.2, KH 2.5,
nitrite 0, nitrate 20 ppm (but as stated, have heard low end readings are not accurate on consumer test kits) gh 5-6, all on the ap test kit. Dosing the trace is where I deviate from EI, because I use the cap, so I probably dose twice as much as I should.

hummm... to my knowledge the trace is not your problem. CSM+B right?

if your tests are right, and i assume they are, the your CO2 is 47.3 ppm, this is good...

i still think it is a NO3 vs PO4 problem,
AP sells a PO4 test, it is a sperate thing that is not part of the Master Kit, i have not seen it at chain superstores like Petco/Petsmart/Walmart, might have to look at a LFS or even order it on-line
HERE

spot-algae usually suggests you are running short on PO4 and Blue-green suggests NO3... you could also be running low on K, since low K will inhibit the uptake of NO3 and PO4 by the plants...
you said you are dosing for a 20-40 gallon tank and this is a 40 gallon... i feel safe in saying you are running out of just about everything by the end of the week. especially if you are heavily planted...

if i was you i would try to start dosing for a 50 gallon tank
i might try a weekly total of
1.75 tsp KNO3
1/8 tsp KH2PO4
3/4 tsp K2SO4

try that for a week or two and see if there is a change... I.E. is great, but IMHO it requires a little tweaking to meet the needs of each individual tank

Hope that Helps

 

[travis74]

So... if I'm reading the responses correctly you are looking for DEFICIENCIES in the EI routine, yes? When I chose to dose EI for 20-40g I did so believing (incorrectly?) that excess nutrients would benefit the algae. I will switch to the next schedule up and see what happens...

 

[JDogg]

So... if I'm reading the responses correctly you are looking for DEFICIENCIES in the EI routine, yes? When I chose to dose EI for 20-40g I did so believing (incorrectly?) that excess nutrients would benefit the algae. I will switch to the next schedule up and see what happens...

excess could help the algae, but deficiencies will help it more, i think you will be safe bumpy your dosing to the next level, as long as you keep thinks balances roughly 10 ppm NO3 for every 1ppm PO4, i have not heard of anyone having trouble with a K excess.
i would aim for ~30ppm NO3 and ~3 ppm PO4, check this throughout the week (maybe daily for awhile) and adjust accordingly.
Weekly 50% pwc should keep excess from becoming a problem.

 

[rich311k]

Definitely bump up the dosing. Excess will not cause algae and is controlled by a 50% water change each week to keep your fish healthy and to reset the tank. A lack of something is what will cause you problems. Keep your CO2 levels up, provide all the nutrients available and you should grow plants and not algae.

 

[Zezmo]

Since you are doing EI, Highlight, and CO2. The presence of the algae is your "test kit". Not all algaes have a "clear source". These two types do though as already stated in this thread.

Greeen Spot, in a high light, EI, CO2 tank is usually related to low Phosphate as others have indicated. That is an easy one to bump up. If GSA is your only algae, then that is usually a good sign that everything else is running well. The last algae standing..heh

The Cyanobacteria, or BGA is very directly related to low Nitrates. This can either be from too low of dosing, or from dead spots in the circulation. You will have to evaluate where the algae is growing to decide what you need. i.e. If it is everywhere, bump the NO3 up. If it is only in a few spots that have low water flow... then do somthing to get better water circulation.

 

[travis74]

This has helped me to pinpoint my problems. I now have a strategy for the next few weeks. Cheers all...

 

[JDogg]

This has helped me to pinpoint my problems. I now have a strategy for the next few weeks. Cheers all...

good luck, keep us informed

 

[Plantbrain]

Seems like low CO2 to me.

The nutrients are fine you are adding.

clean well, do some large water changes, dose well and crank the CO2.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[travis74]

Plantbrain- Are you a proponent of Co2 levels upwards of 60ppm? Does higher Co2 not require dosing at higher levels?

 

[rkilling1]

Plantbrain- Are you a proponent of Co2 levels upwards of 60ppm? Does higher Co2 not require dosing at higher levels?

I am by no means going to put words in Tom's (Plantbrain) mouth or even try to say that I have the Knowledge of a planted tank that he has, But I can hear him saying that the test kits that we use are in no way accurate and unless you are calibrating them, then how do you know you are at 45 PPM CO2? Tom also mentions somewhere that 30 PPM CO2 is the optimum level for plant growth.

If you would like to see what Tom is talking about please visit http://www.barrreport.com/ .

IF I have the time I will see if i can find the quote of Tom stating the optimum CO2 level. Again, I did not quote Tom is this post.

 

[travis74]

I have always heard the same... that 30ppm was an optimal level... I am basing my reading on Chuck's calculator http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
Is this not considered an accurate means of determining Co2 levels? Isn't that why we ask for the PH and KH readings? And if you do a search I am sure you'll find many threads discussing higher Co2 levels in pushing plant grrowth and algal suppression. Again the biggest part of my last question was this: Does pushing the levels of carbon dioxide in a high light tank require altering the dosing regime?

 

[rkilling1]

"This method is specific for CO2 enriched systems with higher light but works even better with lower light CO2 or SeaChem Excel dosing for carbon enriched tanks or salt water and other tanks needing a certain amount of nutrients. I suggest 30ppm of CO2, while a tank with 2 w/gal might be okay with 15-20ppm, many with power compact bulbs and reflectors need to have their CO2 levels higher, 20-30ppm range is optimal for the lighting period. This was found by adding more CO2 until there was no net gain in plant growth while keeping the nutrient and lighting levels consistent during the testing period. Research on three aquatic weeds showed that the plants will reach and carbon fixing maximum at around 30ppm of CO2 no matter what light intensity is used (Van et al 1976). The maximum CO2 level no matter what light set up you might have is about 30ppm for these three very fast growing weeds, which we can assume have higher CO2 needs/demand than slower growing aquarium plants subjected to less intense lighting than sunlight. While the needs of some plants might exceed some of these parameters, it’s very unlikely that this will occur and I’ve found no evidence to support otherwise having grown close to 300 species of submersed freshwater aquatic macrophytes. The CO2 level is enough to support non limiting growth, just like PO4, NO3 and traces. So in a sense, CO2 is over dosed since it's an easier target to hit and measure. Adding more will not harm plants and is only limited by fish health and O2 levels."

The heart of it all:

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html

HTH

 

[Purrbox]

There are many other variables that can affect the calculation of CO2 other than just pH and KH, and even then the calculation is only as accurate as the tests being used. Most pH test kits only test to intervals of .2 and the KH test can have an even wider interval. Further hobbiest grade test kits aren't nearly as accurate as scientific grade kits, so that adds an additional level of uncertainty to the equation. Given all of these factors the CO2 formula is a good estimate of CO2 levels.

 

[travis74]

Thanks for clarifying purrbox. I took the inaccuracy of hobbiest test kits in regards to PH and KH for granted. This question, however still nags at me; does increased Co2 suppress algae?